Iron Age Croatia ?

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Edit: seen wrongly

Your first model has great fit, obviously it work for you. :thumb001:
Suprised how much Roman and how little Illyrian you have :D

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yeah but how accurate can it be since Hun avar is one sample, Hrv IA also one sample but ITA collegno 17 samples?

Are you all using scaled or unscaled corrdinates ? I am using scaled. is there a difference ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagnusDark

Of course. However, I am merely saying people are jumping the gun with regards to the shift. To assume Illyrians were genetically homogeneous all over is wrong. Romans did as they always do(lump groups together). There certainly was genetic deviation region to region as you have among population genetics results today. Naturally Illyrians in Dalmatia will be a little different than those in Albania, ,Macedonia, Kosova etc. They were more in contact with Italic/Celtic tribes on their western periphery. So the shift is no mystery. This is why we look at YDNA to better understand the migratory patterns of a specific clade and try and fill the blanks in as data presents itself.

If southern Illyrians plot as southwest as the Dalmatian samples then we can talk about how big a impact admixture had.

Theres also random recombination events generationally. Some admixtures can be selected for over others.

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Yes, we need southern Illyrian samples. They should be closer to Greeks, because of promixity and mixing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alenka

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tried this for Slovenia and got an even closer fit:
"sample": "Slovenian:Average",
"fit": 1.2497,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"HRV_Early_IA": 15.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10,

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Not bad, though realistically Slovenia might require additional Germanic and some Italo-Celtic (some of it might be sucked into HRV_IA hence the paleo-Balkan/Roman ratio now reversed)

Very good west-med people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Edit: seen wrongly

Your first model has great fit, obviously it work for you. :thumb001:
Suprised how much Roman and how little Illyrian you have :D

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Who is ITA Collegno?

anyway here, it's all pen=0;

"fit": 2.9872,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 43.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0


fit": 3.4716,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

yeah but how accurate can it be since Hun avar is one sample, Hrv IA also one sample but ITA collegno 17 samples?

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Avar Szolad has 2 , BA Dalmatia also 2. Small number of samples is better if they are typical because in large sample size outlying individuals skew the results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Are you all using scaled or unscaled corrdinates ? I am using scaled. is there a difference ?

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that website only uses scaled anyway

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Nope. Illyrians were cloest to North Italians and Iberians, West Med like people.

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You're wrong again, Italians have more east med and less west med than Albanians, certainly less than me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vid Flumina

Not bad, though realistically Slovenia might require additional Germanic and some Italo-Celtic (some of it might be sucked into HRV_IA hence the paleo-Balkan/Roman ratio now reversed)

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Which samples would you suggest trying for those two components?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

Who is ITA Collegno?

anyway here, it's all pen=0;

"fit": 2.9872,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 43.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0


fit": 3.4716,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

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Those are Romans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

that website only uses scaled anyway

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are you using that website or one for unscaled ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulu

You're wrong again, Italians have more east med and less west med than Albanians, certainly less than me.

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No they don't, I am not talking about Sicilians and south Italians but North Italians who are genetically overlaping Iberians.
You are butthurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

are you using that website or one for unscaled ?

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I only know of that website for scaled

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Those are Romans.

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Collegno is near Turin though. Was he R1b :puke

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

No they don't, I am not talking about Sicilians and south Italians but North Italians who are genetically overlaping Iberians.
You are butthurt.

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You're too old to respond with insults. I am as south as southern Italians, it's just the components are different.

Oh I am more west med than Viriato :lol: or this Portuguese

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087720

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087725

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087714

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

Collegno is near Turin though. Was he R1b :puke

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I see R1b and E1b

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulu

You're too old to respond with insults.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087725

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087714

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He's southern Italian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulu

You're too old to respond with insults.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087725

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6087714

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He is South Italian, nice, and cluster with Greeks.

You jumped on me because you are disatisfied this sample is closest to Italians from Bergamo, that is all.
It's different from modern Albanians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alenka

Which samples would you suggest trying for those two components?

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DEU_MA and Hallstatt_Bylany (for lack of anything better)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

He is South Italian, nice, and cluster with Greeks.

You jumped on me because you are disatisfied this sample is closest to Italians from Bergamo, that is all.
It's different from modern Albanians.

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Not about that, we discussed this before and of course northern illyrians would be closer to northern Italian than us, just as we have a cline within us, from north to south. I objected to the west med - east med like comparisson

closest fit I could get.

"fit": 2.4962,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 42.5,
"HRV_MBA": 36.67,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 4.111448",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 4.433221",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 5.280019",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9041: 6.788481",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9033: 7.400296",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9006: 7.482676",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9010: 8.547160",
"CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569: 10.736587"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulu

Not about that, we discussed this before and of course northern illyrians would be closer to northern Italian than us, just as we have a cline within us, from north to south. I objected to the west med - east med like comparisson

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Ok, but by west med I don't mean component itself (peak in Sardinia which is very different genetically). By west med I mean that cluster (geographically), Iberia + North Italy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

He is South Italian, nice, and cluster with Greeks.

You jumped on me because you are disatisfied this sample is closest to Italians from Bergamo, that is all.
It's different from modern Albanians.

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Half Campanian which is more central and quarter northern.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagnusDark

closest fit I could get.

"fit": 2.4962,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 42.5,
"HRV_MBA": 36.67,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 4.111448",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 4.433221",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 5.280019",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9041: 6.788481",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9033: 7.400296",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9006: 7.482676",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9010: 8.547160",
"CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569: 10.736587"

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That's a very good fit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulu

Half Campanian which is more central and quarter northern.

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Genetically he is more southern than he expected, go and ask him. But that is not important!

I tried to lower my fit with Hallstat and/or medieval German samples, didn't work out.

This remain my best fit :)

"fit": 2.9161,

"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 60.83,
"HRV_MBA": 39.17,

Magnus look like ancient Greek + Illyrian + Slavic mix, until we get south Illyrian samples at least. They should be between those first 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Genetically he is more southern than he expected, go and ask him. But that is not important!

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But what's your point really? You said Illyrians are like north Italians. When they are in fact north Illyrian by location. Just as Italians have a north to south cline so do we.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hulu

But what's your point really? You said Illyrians are like north Italians. When they are in fact north Illyrian by location. Just as Italians have a north to south cline so do we.

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Can be, but we don't know until you get ancient Albanian samples. I am obviously speaking about Illyrians from my own country, modeling with them work for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

I see Early Iron Age sample from Croatia added to nMonte runner. That's very exciting and I didn't know we had anything beyond middle bronze age.
Anyone know where is it from, what is it genetically like ?

1200 BC
mtDNA: HV0e

I tried modeling myself with Avar Szolad and that, but fit is rather bad (close to 4). Suprisingly Dalmatian MBA sample works lot better with me (excellent fit below 3),
shouldn't later samples provide better fit ?

If you know anything about this sample help to shed some light.

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Nothing new except its name.
In previous versions it was called Balkans_BA:I3313.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

It's from Zagreb most likely and that's logical since biggest amount of Croats live there.
I don't think it's pure Kajkavian tho because I am very close to it, only bit more east and even less more south, cloeser to that than Ph2ter is who is Kajkavian. (I think)

But again, he cluster more north than average Slovenes.

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"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 1.921,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 83.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 11.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 5,


"closestDistances":
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 2.473108",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2: 4.423726",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 9.382015",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30: 14.856289",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38: 14.903409",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25: 15.140503"


Average Croatian is average Croatian, not average Kajkavian Croatian.
Average Kajkavian is more northeastern than Slovenian. Slovenes in average have more admixture from local pre-Slavic populations than Kajkavian Croatians who are more Slavic and less local (Illyrian or Celtic)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dickski

yeah but how accurate can it be since Hun avar is one sample, Hrv IA also one sample but ITA collegno 17 samples?

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ITA_Collegno_MA_o1 are only 3 samples. _o1 means outlier group 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",
"fit": 2.8411,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"HRV_MBA": 30.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 6.67,

Fit did not improve, remain the same . I would say Roman input is insignificant. What do you think ?

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My:
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 2.0471,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 85,
"HRV_MBA": 11.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 3.33,


"closestDistances":
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 2.473108",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2: 4.423726",
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 9.178576",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 9.711234",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30: 14.856289",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38: 14.903409",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25: 15.140503"

},

Someone mentioned Kajkavian Croatian, so I'm here.

What? Can you share your results in gedmatch and G25?

Nice to see here someone like me. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph2ter

What? Can you share your results in gedmatch and G25?

Nice to see here someone like me. :)

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I don't have them, but soon, very soon. :)

I didn't see you around here, nice to meet you too. :) I'm known here for having 100% dinarid look altough I'm Kajkavian. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Celine

I don't have them, but soon, very soon. :)

I didn't see you around here, nice to meet you too. :) I'm known here for having 100% dinarid look altough I'm Kajkavian. :D

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I am not here very long. I was more in Anthrogenica. Mainly in autosomal section.
You understand taxonomy? How do you classify my phenotype?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph2ter

Nothing new except its name.
In previous versions it was called Balkans_BA:I3313.

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Why did somebody change it's name ? :picard2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ph2ter

"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 1.921,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 83.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 11.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 5,


"closestDistances":
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 2.473108",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2: 4.423726",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 9.382015",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30: 14.856289",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38: 14.903409",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25: 15.140503"


Average Croatian is average Croatian, not average Kajkavian Croatian.
Average Kajkavian is more northeastern than Slovenian. Slovenes in average have more admixture from local pre-Slavic populations than Kajkavian Croatians who are more Slavic and less local (Illyrian or Celtic)

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:thumb001:
Yup, that's what I said. G25 average isn't Kajkavian but average for Croatia, probably like typical inhabitant of Zagreb, who are mix of all Cro regions.

Very interestingly, I menaged to lower the fit for myself adding Iron Age Baltic sample.

"fit": 2.6813,

"HRV_MBA": 46.67,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 29.17,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 24.17,