French Regional Averages by Tomenable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyoHazuki

Could same be said of Swiss French?

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Swiss French are likely very similar to Haut-Savoyards (and people from Ain and also people that are from NW Savoie (north of "Bourget" lake)

I have to say that I had seen a Swiss French plotting very close to Austrians so don't know really. We lack samples, simply that.

According to Giemza :

https://media.springernature.com/ful..._Fig1_HTML.png

You do see the italian influence in Savoie (blue turquoise color)

Someone said that this map isn't reliable but this isn't true. There are 35 samples for each department and they used two panels separated on time, and tested on different SNPs (double randomized study), so it's very solid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Let me check, I excluded a total of 14 samples from Provence and added them to "Central France".

So I excluded almost as many as I included (15 included, 14 excluded). Provence is divided genetically.

I have made a separate sub-average from these 14 ones excluded and called it Northern Provence.

---

Yes, I entirely agree, I think that the coastal areas are very "southern" shifted compared to the inland.

And IMO, it shows up also phenotypically, I was always impressed by people from Provence but inland, their lightness compared to more "coastal" people.

Most averages have been updated, Provence was updated with these two new samples:

Eurogenes K13:

Code:

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Provence16,39.52,16.24,20.17,7.23,14.02,2.13,0,0,0,0,0.59,0.1,0
Provence17,39.12,13.50,22.18,8.15,13.81,2.82,0,0.42,0,0,0,0,0

---

Eurogenes K15:

Code:

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Provence16,27.32,23.67,8.42,3.27,16.72,7.44,10.62,2.27,0,0,0,0,0.27,0,0
Provence17,29.13,21.36,5.08,5.01,19.02,6.85,10.10,3.45,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

---

User Ilma, who is a mix of Normandy + Septimania and 1/4 Spanish IIRC:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4675597

When using only my French averages in SOURCE:

https://i.imgur.com/Asq7sz0.png

Distances with all samples.

K13:

Distance to: gixajo
10.48021946 Provence12
12.63130239 Provence17
13.75639488 Provence3
14.22202869 Provence1
14.26137090 Provence4
14.37554869 Provence16
15.66439274 Provence8
16.05617950 Provence11
16.69224071 Provence2
16.82740622 Provence9
16.99915292 Provence5
17.21259423 Provence13
18.68997325 Provence6
19.18052398 Provence15
21.14346235 Provence10
21.93982680 Provence14
23.98136360 Provence7

k15

Distance to: gixajo
11.77992360 Provence12
12.18803101 Provence4
13.71491159 Provence8
13.94958064 Provence1
14.79022988 Provence2
14.91905493 Provence11
15.73772538 Provence13
15.76587454 Provence5
15.92684212 Provence16
16.79491292 Provence3
17.47397207 Provence9
17.52686224 Provence17
18.07268104 Provence6
19.17355210 Provence15
20.62370966 Provence14
22.00121133 Provence7
22.45745311 Provence10

I checked this one, was posted as "Normandy" in another thread:

Quote:

---

(...)

Normandy :

Spoiler!

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.91
2 North_Sea 31.65
3 West_Med 12.56
4 Baltic 7.98
5 Eastern_Euro 7.6
6 East_Med 2.92
7 West_Asian 2.49
8 Red_Sea 0.79
9 Sub-Saharan 0.71
10 Amerindian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 5.25
2 Southeast_English 5.88
3 South_Dutch 6.53
4 Irish 7.53
5 West_Scottish 8.04
6 French 8.34
7 Orcadian 9.27
8 North_German 9.52
9 Danish 9.59
10 North_Dutch 9.87
11 West_German 10.69
12 Spanish_Cataluna 13.36
13 Norwegian 13.47
14 West_Norwegian 14.12
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.61
16 Swedish 14.84
17 Spanish_Galicia 14.85
18 East_German 14.88
19 Spanish_Cantabria 15.21
20 Portuguese 15.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.3% Southeast_English + 21.7% French_Basque @ 1.45
2 68.1% West_Scottish + 31.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.83
3 66% West_Scottish + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.1
4 81% Southwest_English + 19% French_Basque @ 2.1
5 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% Southwest_French @ 2.24
6 68.1% North_Dutch + 31.9% French_Basque @ 2.24
7 68.8% Danish + 31.2% French_Basque @ 2.28
8 69.9% Irish + 30.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.28
9 72.7% West_Scottish + 27.3% French_Basque @ 2.3
10 68.2% West_Scottish + 31.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.3
11 75.5% Southeast_English + 24.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.31
12 63.2% Orcadian + 36.8% Southwest_French @ 2.33
13 59.6% West_Norwegian + 40.4% French_Basque @ 2.35
14 67.8% Irish + 32.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.42
15 65.1% Orcadian + 34.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.42
16 69.6% Orcadian + 30.4% French_Basque @ 2.44
17 74.4% Southeast_English + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 2.53
18 68.4% West_Scottish + 31.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.56
19 73.9% Southeast_English + 26.1% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.57
20 74.4% Irish + 25.6% French_Basque @ 2.63

---

^^^ Results:

https://i.imgur.com/UcTsGhQ.png

Seems mixed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

I checked this one, was posted as "Normandy" in another thread:



^^^ Results:

g]

Seems mixed.

---

I understand that would be more interesting for you posted results from actual French members and not from a bunch of Spaniards, Irish and Northamericans, that we don't provide much light about this issue.

I don´t know if our results help you anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gixajo

I don´t know if our results help you anything.

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They also help!

Because if you score only Southern French regions, then I can see that my Central French average is good (= does not overlap with neighbours).

The point is to make an average that the majority of French will be closest to, but that neighbours of France will not be close to. "Unique French".

=====

I think we just don't have too many French members who are still active.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

They also help!

Because if you score only Southern French regions, then I can see that my Central French average is good (= does not overlap with neighbours).

The point is to make an average that the majority of French will be closest to, but that neighbours of France will not be close to. "Unique French".

=====

I think we just don't have too many French members who are still active.

---

Anyway, Dududud and his father results could help you more than mines, for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Note that I excluded from Provence all northern-shifted individuals, what remained is very close to Piedmont.

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So you excluded natives to make it look more North Italian?

If you remember the French member Petalpusher, his family was from Provence and they scored more like Central Frenchmen. And they had deep roots from Provence near Monaco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aren

If you remember the French member Petalpusher, his family was from Provence and they scored more like Central Frenchmen. And they had deep roots from Provence near Monaco.

---

Petalpusher has immigrant roots from Northern France IIRC. I'm trying to find his K15/K13 results, have you seen?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

So you excluded natives to make it look more North Italian?

---

Here are the ones that I excluded from Provence and added to "Central French" cluster:

Eurogenes K13:

(you can see which are their top 3 regional averages in Single Distances using Vahaduo)

Code:

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Provence_North1,43.4,15.03,20.62,7.47,9.79,1.67,0.6,0,0,0.2,0.63,0,0.6
Provence_North2,41.67,17.52,17.34,7.99,8.2,5.15,0.54,0,0.97,0.2,0.42,0,0
Provence_North3,40.46,25.89,18.46,1.68,10.3,0,1.52,0,0,0.49,0,1.21,0
Provence_North4,42.23,15.28,22.22,8.16,9.26,0.72,0.2,1.22,0,0,0,0,0.72
Provence_North5,35.28,17.97,21.73,8.66,10.05,1.96,0,1.05,0,0.45,1.37,0,1.49
Provence_North6,40.37,17.01,23.71,2.36,13.63,0.54,0,0,0,0,0.92,1.29,0.16
Provence_North7,43.98,17.81,20.87,0.72,11.56,2.24,0,1.63,0,0,0.57,0.63,0
Provence_North8,40.22,17.44,17.83,4.5,12.66,2.78,0,0.21,0.85,0.19,0,0.51,2.79
Provence_North9,42.31,16.77,26.78,2.09,8.95,1.12,0,0.44,0,0.31,0,0.39,0.84
Provence_North10,39.54,13.81,24.37,6.19,9.84,3.2,0,1.64,0,0.42,0,0.74,0.24
Provence_North11,36.98,18.09,24.67,6.88,10.66,1.24,0.52,0,0,0.34,0.61,0,0
Provence_North12,43.21,16.52,18.34,6.57,9.48,2.89,1.33,0,0.16,0,1.1,0.39,0

---

Eurogenes K15:

Code:

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Provence_North1,30.27,24.64,7.68,3.56,17.6,7.15,5.94,1.69,0.24,0,0,0.02,0.56,0,0.65
Provence_North2,27.89,25.66,8.76,5.92,13.03,5.79,7.31,4.38,0.33,0,0.74,0,0.2,0,0
Provence_North3,25.81,25.78,13.7,10.76,14.29,0.03,7.88,0,0.55,0,0,0.07,0,1.14,0
Provence_North4,27.39,26.64,8.73,3.53,17.39,8.49,4.92,1.51,0,0.71,0,0,0,0.11,0.58
Provence_North5,25.84,20.18,8.47,6.12,18.79,9.04,6.04,1.88,0,0.87,0,0.22,1.3,0,1.24
Provence_North6,30.26,22.82,8.81,3.66,19.37,2.2,10.36,0.56,0,0,0,0,0.57,1.14,0.24
Provence_North7,28.01,27.46,7.45,6.54,17.39,0,8.44,2.41,0,1.17,0,0,0.57,0.57,0
Provence_North8,28.91,21.37,8.33,6.28,14.27,4.94,9.82,2.36,0,0.07,0.26,0.04,0,0.79,2.56
Provence_North9,29.8,24.05,10.05,3.32,23.5,2.76,3.77,1.04,0,0.08,0,0.12,0,1.1,0.41
Provence_North10,26.31,23.84,4.01,7.55,20.31,4.92,7.43,3.42,0,1.16,0,0.2,0,0.77,0.07
Provence_North11,21.56,25.75,11.58,5.75,19.38,5.46,9.16,0.88,0,0,0,0.05,0.44,0,0
Provence_North12,30.49,25.99,5.32,6.29,15.04,6.65,4.41,3.38,1.07,0,0,0,1.03,0.33,0

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

So you excluded natives to make it look more North Italian?

---

I called it Provence_North (n=12). Here are top 3 Single Distances for each of these samples:

Eurogenes K13:

Spoiler!

Distance to: Provence_North12
3.89142647 FRA_Central
4.77782377 FRA_Belgica
7.14620879 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North11
7.21151856 FRA_Central
7.60711509 FRA_Septimania
8.71262877 FRA_Provence

Distance to: Provence_North10
5.34044942 FRA_Septimania
7.05642969 FRA_Central
9.35823167 FRA_Provence

Distance to: Provence_North9
3.39044245 FRA_Septimania
7.09679505 FRA_Central
11.15281579 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North8
5.45528184 FRA_Central
6.95284834 FRA_Belgica
7.14897195 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North7
5.06815548 FRA_Central
7.45411296 FRA_Septimania
7.95457101 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North6
5.20680324 FRA_Septimania
6.26731202 FRA_Central
8.64811540 FRA_Provence

Distance to: Provence_North5
8.42054630 FRA_Central
8.98630625 FRA_Provence
9.16604058 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North4
5.09385905 FRA_Central
7.31163456 FRA_Septimania
7.88986692 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North3
6.46112219 FRA_Alsace
8.00479856 FRA_Belgica
8.98672354 FRA_Central

Distance to: Provence_North2
5.50169974 FRA_Belgica
6.12167461 FRA_Central
6.78611818 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North1
4.38953300 FRA_Central
6.88265937 FRA_Belgica
7.79749960 FRA_Septimania

Eurogenes K15:

Spoiler!

Distance to: Provence_North12
5.85830180 FRA_Belgica
6.60568694 FRA_Central
8.40116063 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North11
7.72029792 FRA_Septimania
7.75058707 FRA_Provence
7.90933626 FRA_Central

Distance to: Provence_North10
7.93924430 FRA_Central
8.60746188 FRA_Septimania
9.97898792 FRA_Provence

Distance to: Provence_North9
9.53980608 FRA_Central
10.74269519 FRA_Septimania
11.52978317 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North8
6.98003582 FRA_Alsace
7.36030570 FRA_Belgica
7.69026007 FRA_Central

Distance to: Provence_North7
4.95788261 FRA_Central
7.10311199 FRA_Septimania
8.24378554 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North6
7.88104054 FRA_Central
9.88633400 FRA_Belgica
10.32114335 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North5
9.45607741 FRA_Alsace
9.53311072 FRA_Central
10.32921101 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North4
5.76146683 FRA_Central
7.36530380 FRA_Belgica
7.89646123 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North3
8.22187327 FRA_Alsace
8.61930392 FRA_Central
8.97606818 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Provence_North2
4.69022388 FRA_Belgica
5.04495788 FRA_Central
5.11958983 FRA_Alsace

Distance to: Provence_North1
6.07604312 FRA_Central
6.76277310 FRA_Belgica
7.93695786 FRA_Alsace

Average in K13:

Code:

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Provence_North,40.80,17.43,21.41,5.27,10.37,1.96,0.39,0.52,0.17,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.57

---

Average in K15:

Code:

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Provence_North,27.71,24.52,8.57,5.77,17.53,4.79,7.12,1.96,0.18,0.34,0.08,0.06,0.39,0.50,0.48

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

So you excluded natives to make it look more North Italian?

If you remember the French member Petalpusher, his family was from Provence and they scored more like Central Frenchmen. And they had deep roots from Provence near Monaco.

---

There was also a half French/half Spanish French member whose French father from Southern france was more Iberian than any other Spanish or Portuguese member here. Even the father was more Iberian than her Spanish wife.

Edit: I don´t remember his nickname, but he posted all their gedmatch results.

Aren, do you think any of those 12 samples which I excluded as Provence_North should be added back to "regular" Provence average?

Some of them have even Alsace or Belgica as 1st closest distance.. you think they are natives in the area, not Piedmont-like samples?

=====

As for "regular" Provence (not Northern):

Provence16 and Provence17 are Aosta-like, I consider them native to coastal Provence.

I'm also about to add one more sample (Provence18), so there will be a total of n=18.

And here is one more sample that I'm considering adding to the "regular" Provence average:

(this sample is listed as a person from Provence, but autosomally a bit closer to Septimania)

K13:

Code:

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Provence18,37.08,16,23.93,4.92,12.07,3.42,0,0.95,0.81,0.25,0.35,0,0.2

---

Distance to: Provence18
6.54312616 FRA_Septimania
6.75668558 FRA_Provence
7.38568209 FRA_Central
11.01306497 FRA_Alsace
11.15754005 FRA_Belgica
17.55055840 FRA_Armorica
18.30290687 FRA_Aquitania

K15:

Code:

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Provence18,17.97,29.78,8.86,6.01,18.21,5.9,7.87,3.65,0,1.11,0.37,0,0.28,0,0

---

Distance to: Provence18
7.79562698 FRA_Septimania
10.13105128 FRA_Provence
10.43514255 FRA_Central
13.82177991 FRA_Alsace
14.26864394 FRA_Belgica
14.29258899 FRA_Aquitania
18.83954617 FRA_Armorica

=====

I go to sleep now, I will update Provence with this new sample tomorrow.

Feel free to find more Provence results if you think this is so controversial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gixajo

Which distances are acceptable in results?

---

5 and below for GEDmatch for Vahaduo and 3 and below for G25 for Vahaduo

Distance to: kevin
5.88752919 FRA_Armorica
11.80463468 FRA_Belgica
13.76814076 FRA_Alsace
14.18872792 Swiss_German
15.45479214 FRA_Central
21.49819992 FRA_Septimania

Distance to: kevin
4.61092182 FRA_Armorica
9.48420265 FRA_Belgica
11.54659690 FRA_Alsace
11.96913113 Swiss_German
13.77205504 FRA_Central
20.16780851 FRA_Septimania
23.43594462 FRA_Provence
27.19939338 FRA_Aquitania

OK, last updates of Provence & Central for today. I can no longer edit the opening post (1st post).

Tomorrow I will probably ask some admin to let me edit it again in order to update the averages.

Provence n=18

=====

Eurogenes K15:

Code:

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FRA_Provence,21.54,24.19,7.16,4.53,18.02,6.13,14.18,2.51,0.30,0.18,0.19,0.24,0.24,0.44,0.15
FRA_Central,27.42,27.40,8.88,6.00,16.19,3.94,6.84,1.52,0.33,0.15,0.21,0.29,0.25,0.38,0.19

---

Eurogenes K13:

Code:

---

FRA_Provence,35.29,14.21,22.15,6.32,17.28,2.40,0.34,0.30,0.29,0.39,0.37,0.40,0.24
FRA_Central,42.44,18.30,20.54,4.81,9.77,1.58,0.50,0.25,0.35,0.45,0.37,0.38,0.24

---

^^^
In K13 this average is closest to Swiss Italians:

Distance to: FRA_Provence
3.23264598 Swiss-Italian
(...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesBond007

5 and below for GEDmatch for Vahaduo and 3 and below for G25 for Vahaduo

---

I guess, this is the is the usual norm with Vahaduo G25 and Gedmatch.

I asked that because in some Gedmatch calculators in Vahaduo, distances are sometimes huge(even in natives) and I didn´t know exactly what were acceptable distances in this one, because we didn´t see any native member posting his results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gixajo

I guess, this is the is the usual norm with Vahaduo G25 and Gedmatch.

I asked that because in some Gedmatch calculators in Vahaduo, distances are sometimes huge(even in natives) and I didn´t know exactly what were acceptable distances in this one, because we didn´t see any native member posting his results.

---

I understand what you are saying but this one does not have that problem at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesBond007

I understand what you are saying but this one does not have that problem at least.

---

When I did that question was because I did the wrong calculator and I got more than 5k% distance :picard1:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

Petalpusher has immigrant roots from Northern France IIRC. I'm trying to find his K15/K13 results, have you seen?

---

I've spoken with Petalpusher. His father is from Drôme and his mother from Provence, near Monaco. He has deep roots in SE France.

This is is mother's K13

Spoiler!

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.51
2 West_Med 22.08
3 Baltic 20.48
4 West_Asian 7.01
5 East_Med 5.86
6 Siberian 1.06


1 French 6.3
2 South_Dutch 6.43
3 West_German 7.42
4 Southeast_English 10.24
5 Southwest_English 10.46
6 Spanish_Cataluna 11.14
7 Southwest_French 11.42
8 Orcadian 11.99
9 Spanish_Cantabria 12.25
10 Austrian 12.35
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.53
12 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
13 Irish 12.75
14 North_German 12.88
15 Portuguese 13.08
16 West_Scottish 13.1
17 North_Dutch 13.11
18 Danish 13.46
19 East_German 13.65
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.81

And this is his K13

Spoiler!

1 North_Atlantic 40.79
2 West_Med 23.73
3 Baltic 20.31
4 East_Med 8.17
5 West_Asian 5.49
6 Red_Sea 0.96
7 East_Asian 0.38
8 Siberian 0.18


1 French @ 6.233057
2 South_Dutch @ 9.196218
3 West_German @ 9.694644
4 Spanish_Cataluna @ 10.166491
5 Southwest_French @ 10.635451
6 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.049023
7 Spanish_Cantabria @ 11.470937
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 11.649289
9 Portuguese @ 11.798075
10 Spanish_Valencia @ 13.038110
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.210588
12 Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.406804
13 Spanish_Murcia @ 13.636230
14 Austrian @ 13.859152
15 Southeast_English @ 14.551850
16 Spanish_Andalucia @ 14.838248
17 Spanish_Aragon @ 15.041942
18 Southwest_English @ 15.308091
19 East_German @ 15.576905
20 Orcadian @ 16.896818

Now I don't think the average ethnic French from Provence scores like her, but she's not an outlier just northern shifted.
I get your thinking though. Since there are such high variation. You think those scoring like Piedmont are natives and what Provence should look like, I think Provence is more similar to Central France and forms continuum with it. Those who score like Piedmont or other regions of Northern Italy probably are from urban areas with a lot of hidden Italian ancestry, maybe not recent but from the past few hundred years.

Aren, the original inhabitants of Provence were the Ligures, as far as I know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures

^^^ This makes me think, that NW Italian-like genetics is more native to this area?

But it doesn't really matter because I divide samples also based on how they cluster.

If they cluster with the rest of Central French, they go to Central region, and within that I have sub-regions (like Provence_North).

And as I said, individuals with Central French genetics can be found in ALL regions, but in some regions they aren't the majority.

In Provence, individuals with Italian-like genetics outnumber those with Central French.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

You think those scoring like Piedmont are natives and what Provence should look like, I think Provence is more similar to Central France and forms continuum with it. Those who score like Piedmont or other regions of Northern Italy probably are from urban areas with a lot of hidden Italian ancestry, maybe not recent but from the past few hundred years.

---

There are many "Central" and some very Southern-shifted samples even among samples from Nord Department (near the Belgian border). And in that case I excluded them from "Belgica" average.

One sample from Nord Department is close to Aosta!

But in Provence >60% of samples are "Southern". Hard to believe that the majority are immigrants, and the minority (some of whom are very northern-shifted, even close to Belgica or Alsace) are natives.

Also, if everyone in Provence was genetically intermediate between South and Centre, then none of them would be "outliers".

But here, rather than having one intermediate population, you have perhaps two different populations - one "Southern" and one "Central".

=====

But I posted K15 and K13 results for all 30 samples (18 Provence + 12 Provence_North). You can copy-paste this into Excel to calculate one big average for all 30 samples, and see if it works well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

There are many "Central" and some very Southern-shifted samples even among samples from Nord Department (near the Belgian border). And in that case I excluded them from "Belgica" average.

One sample from Nord Department is close to Aosta!

But in Provence >60% of samples are "Southern". Hard to believe that the majority are immigrants, and the minority (some of whom are very northern-shifted, even close to Belgica or Alsace) are natives.

Also, if everyone in Provence was genetically intermediate between South and Centre, then none of them would be "outliers".

But here, rather than having intermediate population, you simply have two different populations - one "Southern" and one "Central".

---

Like I said I understand your logic, you do what you think is more plausible. I never said they were immigrants btw.

This high diversity is seen also in Davids Provence sample in his PCA 25 spreadsheet.

https://i.imgur.com/MdJcakq.png

Some are almost 100% French-Paris others like North Italians, some are even mixes others have a stronger shift. Since there is such diversity it points to that it must be recent, otherwise the overwhelming majority would be scoring similar and with few outliers.

K13

Distance to: Grace
8.15385798 FRA_Armorica
14.16801327 FRA_Belgica
15.75946382 FRA_Alsace
18.13683545 FRA_Central
24.56473489 FRA_Septimania
28.48746566 FRA_Provence
29.72610133 FRA_Aquitania

Target: Grace
Distance: 815.3858% / 8.15385798
100.0 FRA_Armorica

K15 is the same.

K15

Distance to: Grace
7.98239939 FRA_Armorica
12.92812438 FRA_Belgica
14.43360662 FRA_Alsace
17.10164904 FRA_Central
23.45273971 FRA_Septimania
26.43121639 FRA_Provence
29.57107878 FRA_Aquitania

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

Like I said I understand your logic, you do what you think is more plausible. I never said they were immigrants btw.

This high diversity is seen also in Davids Provence sample in his PCA 25 spreadsheet.

https://i.imgur.com/MdJcakq.png

Some are almost 100% French-Paris others like North Italians, some are even mixes others have a stronger shift. Since there is such diversity it points to that it must be recent, otherwise the overwhelming majority would be scoring similar and with few outliers.

---

I'm using all of those samples too, among others. Here is how they are counted in my averages:

K15 and K13 for S_23_2 (the one which is kind of "borderline" based on your G25 comparison):

Code:

---

S_23_2[K15],25.84,20.18,8.47,6.12,18.79,9.04,6.04,1.88,0,0.87,0,0.22,1.30,0,1.24

---

Distance to: S_23_2[K15]
9.45607741 FRA_Alsace
9.53311072 FRA_Central
10.32921101 FRA_Belgica
10.95305437 FRA_Provence
12.78696993 FRA_Septimania
15.95135417 FRA_Armorica
22.97471001 FRA_Aquitania

Code:

---

S_23_2[K13],35.28,17.97,21.73,8.66,10.05,1.96,0,1.05,0,0.45,1.37,0,1.49

---

Distance to: S_23_2[K13]
8.42054630 FRA_Central
8.98630625 FRA_Provence
9.16604058 FRA_Alsace
10.24050780 FRA_Belgica
10.82294784 FRA_Septimania
16.73916366 FRA_Armorica
21.87317307 FRA_Aquitania

https://i.imgur.com/CMQPdXI.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

Like I said I understand your logic, you do what you think is more plausible. I never said they were immigrants btw.

This high diversity is seen also in Davids Provence sample in his PCA 25 spreadsheet.

https://i.imgur.com/MdJcakq.png

Some are almost 100% French-Paris others like North Italians, some are even mixes others have a stronger shift. Since there is such diversity it points to that it must be recent, otherwise the overwhelming majority would be scoring similar and with few outliers.

---

Yeah, actually there have been lot of italian immigration to Provence, not only in the XXth century but even centuries before so that makes totally sense.

I would say that these very Italian results come from the coastal areas. Just a guess, because they have been a lot more urban.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

There are many "Central" and some very Southern-shifted samples even among samples from Nord Department (near the Belgian border). And in that case I excluded them from "Belgica" average.

One sample from Nord Department is close to Aosta!

But in Provence >60% of samples are "Southern". Hard to believe that the majority are immigrants, and the minority (some of whom are very northern-shifted, even close to Belgica or Alsace) are natives.

Also, if everyone in Provence was genetically intermediate between South and Centre, then none of them would be "outliers".

But here, rather than having one intermediate population, you have perhaps two different populations - one "Southern" and one "Central".

=====

But I posted K15 and K13 results for all 30 samples (18 Provence + 12 Provence_North). You can copy-paste this into Excel to calculate one big average for all 30 samples, and see if it works well.

---

Aosta like still doesn't mean Piedmontese like, I've seen lot of Aostans samples, they are "Provencal" like, not Northern Italian.

Those Provencal "Northern Italian like" are much more southern shifted than any Aostan would be actually (and I've seen also Aostans clustering like Central French ! very near your average for Central France)

My father : Pierre_Bord_scaled,0.12862,0.137096,0.050157,0.032 3,0.045855,0.013108,-0.00188,0.005307,0.007158,0.018406,-0.003248,0.007343,-0.016204,-0.012661,0.021851,-0.006364,-0.024643,0.005194,0.00264,-0.005628,0.003868,0.002597,0.000863,0.008796,0.004 67

K13/K15 for provance4409 (which I excluded completely - but I might reconsider and add to Provence_North):

K13:

Code:

---

provance4409,36.30,24.59,17.39,8.17,9.60,0.36,0.69,0,0,1.05,0,0,1.86

---

K15:

Code:

---

provance4409,29.86,17.61,13.14,10.18,13.00,6.72,6.64,0.65,0.04,0,0,0.53,0,0,1.62

---

^^^
He scores Austria in Eurogenes K15... (and in G25 it also looks like he has some sort of Slovak-like admixture):

https://i.imgur.com/KifH4V5.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samnium

Aosta like still doesn't mean Piedmontese like

---

Yeah but this is a sample allegedly from Nord Department (of course I count it as part of "Central" - I excluded from "Belgica"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_(French_department)

K15:

Code:

---

Nord28,25.14,31.46,9.32,2.58,18.26,3.44,6.2,1.14,1.13,0,0,0.96,0.24,0,0.12

---

K13:

Code:

---

Nord28,44.26,14.93,23.28,3.82,8.98,1.56,1.31,0,0,1.22,0.33,0,0.31

---

It is among the most southern-shifted of Nord samples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

(...) Some are almost 100% French-Paris

---

Provance4409 was only scoring 91% Paris because your comparison was limited to either Paris or Piedmont (no other options possible).

Look where this sample plots in Global25 PCA, right next to Austria8 and Austria11:

https://i.imgur.com/8FUK1j0.png

Based on K15 (see above), this sample is closest to Austria_Burgenland (whoever made that average).

I think this sample might have Polish great-grandfather or something like that (lots of Poles in France):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_France

Maybe try a comparison with Paris + Piedmont + Belarusian/Ukrainian, and see if this one scores higher % of East Euro than all others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

Provance4409 was only scoring 91% Paris because your comparison was limited to either Paris or Piedmont (no other options possible).

Look where this sample plots in Global25 PCA, right next to Austria8 and Austria11:

https://i.imgur.com/8FUK1j0.png

Based on K15 (see above), this sample is closest to Austria_Burgenland (whoever made that average).

I think this sample might have Polish great-grandfather or something like that (lots of Poles in France):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_France

Maybe try a comparison with Paris + Piedmont + Belarusian/Ukrainian, and see if this one scores higher % of East Euro than all others.

---

Yeah that guy for sure has recent ancestry from East-Central Europe.
That's kinda the case with many samples from France, even academical ones I presume since they can't sample based on heritage conisdering it's illegal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

Yeah that guy for sure has recent ancestry from East-Central Europe.
That's kinda the case with many samples from France, even academical ones I presume since they can't sample based on heritage conisdering it's illegal.

---

They can check the "ancestry" (atleast until the great-grd parents), they did that on the last study (Giemza et al) because without that, you have meaningless averages and studies

I think Greeks had very good methodology in this study (and of course they sampled based on heritage):

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ahg.12328

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/31192450/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samnium

They can check the "ancestry" (atleast until the great-grd parents), they did that on the last study (Giemza et al) because without that, you have meaningless averages and studies

---

So it's not illegal? Cause I've heard numerous times that you can't collect info on others in France based on heritage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aren

So it's not illegal? Cause I've heard numerous times that you can't collect info on others in France based on heritage.

---

Illegal to check the genealogy? I don't think.

This thread underscores that TA needs more members with French ancestry. So far Euro mutts and German-Americans are coming closest to French populations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daco Celtic

This thread underscores that TA needs more members with French ancestry. So far Euro mutts and German-Americans are coming closest to French populations.

---

I have some samples of French from my cousins ​from the North of France, I could help

I prefer not to share my results because being that three quarter French, the results will be distorted.