Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania

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03-02-2017, 01:30 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

For the first question, i asked you because i belive that you have read this article.
For the second question, i am reading Eupedia and i see that there is no consensus if I2a-Din is of slavic origine or Paleolithic continuity. The result is in favour of Paleolithic continuity: 60 51.28% vs 37 31.62%
Here is the link:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/poll.ph...do=showresults
How do you explain this?

Eupedia and other such sources make this claim ( I should remind you that your good friend, Davai, also claims something like this). Eupedia I guess has many South Slavs who like to associate I2 with Illyrians. Personally, I do not buy it.

Nordvedt, as far as I know, has disproven this idea and shows that it is very young indeed. ( coalescing in Baltic area after the Illyrians and Thracians settled in Southeast Europe). The diversity of the clade decreases from North as you go South in the Balkans. Founder effect caused it to have huge numbers in Balkans.
03-02-2017, 01:31 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ujku

Ore ca meresh me kta kok pidhat ? Kta na beren slav te mixuar me turk edhe vlech te ter shqiptaret e jugut.

E di. Eshte nje bastard pa identitet familiar dhe kombetar. Dobici i ndonje servi. E ka pranuar qe gjyshi i tij ishte nje lloj perfaqesuesi i shqiptareve. Ata dinin ke zgjidhnin si perfaqesues. Pra ka hyre dhe ka dale me ta, keshtu qe nuk eshte cudi qe Shega e tij i ka hapur shalet dhe ata ja kane care pjeshken.
03-02-2017, 01:33 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

Eupedia and other such sources make this claim ( I should remind you that your good friend, Davai, also claims something like this). Eupedia I guess has many South Slavs who like to associate I2 with Illyrians. Personally, I do not buy it.

Nordvedt, as far as I know, has disproven this idea and shows that it is very young indeed. ( coalescing in Baltic area after the Illyrians and Thracians settled in Southeast Europe). The diversity of the clade decreases from North as you go South in the Balkans. Founder effect caused it to have huge numbers in Balkans.

Appart Eupedia who is just a forum, exist this discussion among scholars if this haplogroup is native or slavic?
03-02-2017, 01:36 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

Appart Eupedia who is just a forum, exist this discussion among scholars if this haplogroup is native or slavic?

Yes, check Ken Nordvedt. He organized most of the information we know of I type haplogroups. His information is a little hard to find online, but I am sure that Albanian members here have it, if it exists in online format.
03-02-2017, 01:39 PM
epirot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

Ghegs get around 6% I2+r1a combined.

Tosks about 23%

Arbereshe about 30%

(I do not count I1- brought by Normans, Goths, Catalans, etc)

You can interpret that any way your little heart desires.

So, could one correlate the criminal tendencies of the albs to the (non-existing) common bloodline or to (most likely) common criminal culture?
03-02-2017, 01:39 PM
Dema

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

Ok, but i see that there is not consensus about this. The members of this forum, Eupedia, are just nickname and we don`t know if any of them is a real expert or they are just amateurs, but this lack of consensus exist. Is your explanation accepted by all scholars or exist contradiction?

This is pretty much accepted by everyone. I dont hold by what Eupedia says, i just used their map to try to show you how I2a Dinaric now stands.
03-02-2017, 01:42 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

Yes, check Ken Nordvedt. He organized most of the information we know of I type haplogroups. His information is a little hard to find online, but I am sure that Albanian members here have it, if it exists in online format.

Let`s not lose our time with Ken. So you agree that there is not an consensus among scholars about the origine of this Haplogroup?
03-02-2017, 01:44 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dema

This is pretty much accepted by everyone. I dont hold by what Eupedia says, i just used their map to try to show you how I2a Dinaric now stands.

This thread in Eupedia is huge, 48 pages and both sides are using references to prove their opinion.
03-02-2017, 01:46 PM
Laberia

Come on Scholarios, faster.
03-02-2017, 01:53 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

Let`s not lose our time with Ken. So you agree that there is not an consensus among scholars about the origine of this Haplogroup?

No, I don't agree. There is not a consensus among online chauvinists, yes, but the age of I2-DIN(L621) is young as shown by Nordvedt, who is the expert on this group. (it's Around 2,000 years old). This Post-dates Paleo-Balkan Late Bronze/Early Iron Age Arrivals of Illyrians to Balkans.

You were showing promise of being capable of reason. Don't revert Labby, don't do it.
03-02-2017, 01:57 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

No, I don't agree. There is not a consensus among online chauvinists, yes, but the age of I2-DIN(L621) is young as shown by Nordvedt, who is the expert on this group. (it's Around 2,000 years old). This Post-dates Paleo-Balkan Late Bronze/Early Iron Age Arrivals of Illyrians to Balkans.

You were showing promise of being capable of reason. Don't revert Labby, don't do it.

Ok, there is no consensus, we know now.
Can you tell me please, how percent of the sample was I2a-Din?
I am serious in my discussion. I told you that i don`t know from genetics, so i accept everything you say. And this is the reason why i make many questions.
03-02-2017, 02:01 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

Yes, check Ken Nordvedt. He organized most of the information we know of I type haplogroups. His information is a little hard to find online, but I am sure that Albanian members here have it, if it exists in online format.

From your source:
Ken: I am a mathematical physicist doing research in gravity, space, and time; we folks never seem to retire from our investigations, whether employed or on pension. I am also interested in most all of the hard sciences and in history. Politics has, since 1950, been one of my other interests and passions. I used to travel a lot, ski and sail, and backpack into the mountains until arthritis got in the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt
Kenneth Leon Nordtvedt (born 1939) is a senior researcher specializing in relativistic theories of gravity. He was born on April 16, 1939, in Chicago, Illinois. Nordtvedt graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1960) and Stanford University (Ph.D., 1964) and was a junior fellow in the Harvard Society of Fellows (1963-1965). During this same period he was staff physicist at the MIT Instrumentation Laboratory project to develop the Apollo Mission's navigation and guidance system.

In the mid-1960s he showed how lunar laser ranging could be used to test a cornerstone of general relativity known as the equivalence principle, especially as extended to gravitationally compact bodies. He was a board member and scientific advisor overseeing the joint NASA-ESA Space Test of Equivalence Principle mission. He was appointed by then President Ronald Reagan to the National Science Board. He was elected to three terms in the Montana state legislature for a six-year period in the early eighties, and there he wrote one of the first inflation indexing reforms of income tax law in the nation. He served briefly in 1989 as Director of the Montana Department of Revenue. He had support from NASA and NSF for much of his research, as well as being a Sloan Fellow. His research was the subject of a Wall Street Journal article featured on the front page.[1]

He showed in 1988 that gravitomagnetism, which is an effect predicted by general relativity but hasn't been observed yet at that time and was even challenged by the scientific community, is inevitably a real effect because it is a direct consequence of the gravitational vector potential. He subsequently shown that the gravitomagnetism interaction, like inertial frame dragging and the Lense–Thirring precession, is typically a Mach effect.[2]

He is also an active genetic genealogist by interests. He has done his own research into genetic haplogroups, particularly the Y DNA group I, to which he belongs.[3][4]
03-02-2017, 02:03 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

Ok, there is no consensus, we know now.
Can you tell me please, how percent of the sample was I2a-Din?
I am serious in my discussion. I told you that i don`t know from genetics, so i accept everything you say. And this is the reason why i make many questions.

There is a consensus. There is only lack of consensus in the same way there is a lack of consensus on if vaccines cause autism or that natural selection produces evolutionary change. This is a sophistic appeal. If your argument is lack of consensus based on nerds on Eupedia, then also you should believe that Albanians origin is Caucasus, because Eupedia argues about that too.

Read the article (just the juicy parts). Then search for info on each haplogroup. We need only be concerned here about I2. You don't need to take my word for it, or anyone on this forum(s).
03-02-2017, 02:04 PM
Laberia

Ufaaaa Scholariooooos.
03-02-2017, 02:06 PM
Skerdilaid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorcelow

Is there any explanation for why this haplogroup reaches such high percentages in southern Albania?

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup_I2a.gif

I would think that its the leftovers from Kutmichevitsa Slavs

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Stati...tonen%20-1.gif

Either that or its somehow native?

I can't see the first image but are you using Eupedia as a source again? There are only couple of a scientific studies about Tosks as far as I know, in total probably couple of hundred people tested so we can't say for certain how common CTS10228 is in the south. Could be sample bias.
03-02-2017, 02:08 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

There is a consensus. There is only lack of consensus in the same way there is a lack of consensus on if vaccines cause autism or that natural selection produces evolutionary change. This is a sophistic appeal. If your argument is lack of consensus based on nerds on Eupedia, then also you should believe that Albanians origin is Caucasus, because Eupedia argues about that too.

Read the article (just the juicy parts). Then search for info on each haplogroup. We need only be concerned here about I2. You don't need to take my word for it, or anyone on this forum(s).

DejaVu, a proud firomski.
No, i have said many times that since someone is hidden behind a nickname, always exist a reasonable doubt. But i see this war of this nerds where everyone use his sources, full with quotes.
BTW, you didn`t answer, how percent of the sample is R1a and how many is I2a-Din.
03-02-2017, 02:09 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerdilaid

I can't see the first image but are you using Eupedia as a source again? There are only couple of a scientific studies about Tosks as far as I know, in total probably couple of hundred people tested so we can't say for certain how common CTS10228 is in the south. Could be sample bias.

I agree about Eupedia, but judging how well it lines up with North Greeks and even Peloponesians, plus others in the region, I really don't think it is sample bias.
03-02-2017, 02:10 PM
Laberia

Come on Scholarios, faster. This trap was prepared from you a long time ago.
03-02-2017, 02:10 PM
Dema

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerdilaid

Could be sample bias.

I dont believe that this Eupedia map is accurate, no chance that there is more I2a din in S Albania then Macedonia.
03-02-2017, 02:13 PM
Skerdilaid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

I agree about Eupedia, but judging how well it lines up with North Greeks and even Peloponesians, plus others in the region, I really don't think it is sample bias.

What lines up, Maciamo's imagination (paint skills)? Northern Greeks and Tosks are extremely undertested. I actually don't recall to have seen a studie that specifically targeted Northern Greeks. Do you know any?
03-02-2017, 02:13 PM
Laberia

Scholarios, how many serious historians in the world take seriously the genetic results in their studies?
03-02-2017, 02:15 PM
Era

I don't have any I2a1 among my 1250 relatives. Any other name for this?
03-02-2017, 02:16 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Era

I don't have any I2a1 among my 1250 relatives. Any other name for this?

You are from South Era?
03-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Wrong

0% I2a1b among my DNA relatives, which is why I plot like a civilized ancient beast.

:D
03-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Era

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

You are from South Era?

Central Albania, so I have both southerners and greeks as relatives
03-02-2017, 02:20 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skerdilaid

What lines up, Maciamo's imagination (paint skills)? Northern Greeks and Tosks are extremely undertested. I actually don't recall to have seen a studie that specifically targeted Northern Greeks. Do you any?

For Tosks, maybe you are right. (though the Arbereshe studies show a lot of I2 and R1a) On Northern Greece, Battaglia did, and I think some others. It seems to me that Northern Greeks are strangely the most tested. I think Catgeorge posted those here very recently.

And it isn't just that. Look at the Greek family dna projects, this clade is found a lot there. Even if it is unorganized, it seems obvious to me. Probably some of it was even brought by Arvanites :cool:
03-02-2017, 02:21 PM
Wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

For Tosks, maybe you are right. (though the Arbereshe studies show a lot of I2 and R1a) On Northern Greece, Battaglia did, and I think some others. It seems to me that Northern Greeks are strangely the most tested. I think Catgeorge posted those here very recently.

And it isn't just that. Look at the Greek family dna projects, this clade is found a lot there. Even if it is unorganized, it seems obvious to me. Probably some of it was even brought by Arvanites :cool:

Founder effect, it was not an extensive study.
03-02-2017, 02:22 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

Founder effect, it was not an extensive study.

Probably, but in any case, it's the same in the end. Slavic-speaking male origin for 30% of Arbershe.

edit: 30% of those tested. Samples were taken from several villages. I believe they were not a homogeneous group.
03-02-2017, 02:26 PM
DRUM

http://i.imgur.com/DBFs52N.jpg
03-02-2017, 02:29 PM
Wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scholarios Chiotis

Probably, but in any case, it's the same in the end. Slavic-speaking male origin for 30% of Arbershe.

They would need to test thousands of them to make that conclusion and separate I2a1 clades from others. Sardinia peaks in I2a1 aswell.
03-02-2017, 02:30 PM
Dema

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

0% I2a1b among my DNA relatives, which is why I plot like a civilized ancient man.

:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Era

I don't have any I2a1 among my 1250 relatives. Any other name for this?

Do you guys speak about 23andme matches or you include Ged Match too?

I get 205 matches on Family Finder.
03-02-2017, 02:33 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër

They would need to test thousands of them to make that conclusion and separate I2a1 clades from others. Sardinia peaks in I2a1 aswell.

Well, here lay the problem with modern population genetics. (or how it is used by people like us).

But just a bet, but really don't believe Arbereshe I2a1 is related to Sardinian.... just a hunch.
03-02-2017, 02:35 PM
Era

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dema

Do you guys speak about 23andme matches or you include Ged Match too?

I get 205 matches on Family Finder.

Those are my 23andme relatives only. I'm not familiar with Gedmatch except when comparing one to one.
03-02-2017, 02:35 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Era

Central Albania, so I have both southerners and greeks as relatives

Responding to your question, a DNA test is a survey on the population. More people participate, the more small is the margin of error. Here we are not talking about personal test, but the surveys on the population. According to this study that Scholarios introduced us, testing 104 people, there was a result of 23% of Slavic presence in South Albania. Although we're not sure if this is a typical haplogroup of haplogroup Slavs.
One must remember that there are no serious scholars who take on these results seriously. One reason, certainly there is, because this historians use other scientific disciplines in their work.
Even the exit polls made before the elections are a scientific work. The problem is that against all the so-called serious polls, won Trump, not Clinton.
03-02-2017, 02:42 PM
Voskos

lol, i love how albanians take it as an insult to be related to slavs.as if they had the plague or something
03-02-2017, 02:43 PM
Laberia

So you have told nothing with this famous study Scholarios.
And you didn't answer what happened to all this slavs.
03-02-2017, 02:44 PM
Dick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevillager

lol, i love how albanians take it as an insult to be related to slavs.as if they had the plague or something

:cool:
03-02-2017, 02:45 PM
Wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevillager

lol, i love how albanians take it as an insult to be related to slavs.as if they had the plague or something

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...py-I-m-Not-E1b
03-02-2017, 02:46 PM
Laberia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevillager

lol, i love how albanians take it as an insult to be related to slavs.as if they had the plague or something

Yes it's true, we hate them. But here is not the discussion about this. This Scholarios have a theory and he is not accepting a serious discussion. And was him who organized all this.
03-02-2017, 02:46 PM
Scholarios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laberia

Responding to your question, a DNA test is a survey on the population. More people participate, the more small is the margin of error. Here we are not talking about personal test, but the surveys on the population. According to this study that Scholarios introduced us, testing 104 people, there was a result of 23% of Slavic presence in South Albania. Although we're not sure if this is a typical haplogroup of haplogroup Slavs.
One must remember that there are no serious scholars who take on these results seriously. One reason, certainly there is, because this historians use other scientific disciplines in their work.
Even the exit polls made before the elections are a scientific work. The problem is that against all the so-called serious polls, won Trump, not Clinton.

Sure, but that 23% Slavic dna combined with

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0w...Z=w599-h469-no

and this

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kJ...O=w599-h416-no

and this

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oz...X=w539-h305-no

plus this

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/seli_s...ish_slavic.png

and (old phylogenic name) map of i2a1b

http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg

So these provide some perspective, don't you agree? All the objections in TA can't really stop me from thinking.... hmmmm. that's weird. Amirite or amirite?

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