Going by this Turks aren’t Turkic. Anyways, the Scythians in West Eurasia were Iranic although the “Scythian” towards the east probably were assimilated Turkics or just bilingual Turkic peoplesQuote:
Originally Posted by Böri
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Going by this Turks aren’t Turkic. Anyways, the Scythians in West Eurasia were Iranic although the “Scythian” towards the east probably were assimilated Turkics or just bilingual Turkic peoplesQuote:
Originally Posted by Böri
Khotanese Saka people (the inscription you talk about) were farmer agriculturalists who were genetically like 15-20% South Asian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
West Scythians (pastoralist nomads) were overwhelmingly Europid with minor Siberid.
The language they talked was not for sure.
In fact we dont know even if it was only one language.
nope. only Euro-Mongoloid skulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
90% Caucasoid and 10% Mongoloid on average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Actually you should say "Aryan DNA is already very significant", since the evidence of the deer-stones undoubtedly strengthens the position of those who argue for the eastern, Central Asian origin of the animal style and of the entire Scythian culture. Btw oldest Scythian graves were found in Tuva, and they were 35-55% Mongoloid. Their aDNA is entirely Turkic. This fits actually to Herodots claim that Scythians originated beyond the Jaxartes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
For the last time, Pazyryk aren't Scythians. They were a far out people who had been culturally Scythicized. The original Scythians are the True Scyths, aka Royal Scyths. Many different groups were recognized as having adopted Scythian culture, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanchlaeni
Scythians were absolutely not Turkic, linguistically, genetically, culturally, racially. None of these things even existed when Scythians first appeared. We also have no idea whether or not this DNA is Mongoloid, just because it is concentrated in Mongoloids today doesn't make it Mongoloid.
For the first and last time. Oldest Scythian graves are from Tuva 9th c. BC, they were 35-55% Mongoloid and racially of mixed Euro-Mongoloid type. Pazyrykians descended from these Turco-Mongol steppe barbarians. They all, without any exception, score entirely Turkic on aDNA gedmatch results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab the Gauge
edit: their Y-DNA is of Kyrgyz-Kypchak type R1a Z2124 + some Q1a
27.53 + 25.2 + 3.25 = 55.98% ( actually 56% )Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
And what do you mean only 50-55% Mongoloid only ? That's like trying to tell me a half Black person wouldn't identify himself as Black when like 99.99999% of them always do let alone the ones who are above 50%.
This is only one GEDmatch kit numbers. I'm sure they will vary.
I knew I was smarter than most members in this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Böri
European A.K.A West Eurasian , it includes all admixtures that are Caucasoid by race such as West Asian, Mediterranean, Southwest Asian, North European, Caucasus, Gedrosia.
East Asian A.K.A East Eurasian, it includes all admixtures that are Mongoloid by race such as East Asian, Southeast Asian, Siberian
Seriously it's such a easy logic even I figured it out in a short time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplicatedMystery
I agree there is some problem with both charts.
For exampled the Tajiks East Asian admixture is very low in one end and very high in the other end. Low east Asian admixture could be from Pamiri Tajiks, this study properly includes them
The Uyghurs show 35-40% East Asian and 60-65% European which is wrong. This admixture is only based on Uyghurs from Southern Xinjiang and that's misleading. Northern Uyghurs have only 30-47% European admixture which they didn't include ( btw European in this study means west Eurasians from west asian, european, southwest asian, caucasus ect )
Uyghur genetics
KK (2009). "Genetic Landscape of Eurasia and "Admixture" in Uyghurs". American Journal of Human Genetics. 8
" various scientific studies differ on the size of each component.[129] One study, using samples from Hetian (Hotan) only, found that Uyghurs have 60% European ancestry and 40% East Asian ancestry.[130] A further study showed slightly greater European component (52% European) in the Uyghur population in southern Xinjiang, but slightly greater East Asian component (47% European) in the northern Uyghur population.[131] Another study used a larger sample of individuals from a wider area, and found only about 30% European component to the admixture.[132] "
TURKMEN DNA GENETIC VARIATION IS A LOT MORE LARGER THAN THAT GRAPH HAD SHOWN. Mongoloid DNA can be over 50% in some Turkmen aswell. You can see some Turkmen tribe look very Mongoloid like the Tekke Turkmen and other Turkmen tribes while the Turkmen living in a historically Iranian city in Turkmenistan have a much lower Mongoloid although some look like they have high aswell.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2nsqvbt.png
SCYTHIAN DNAQuote:
Originally Posted by Grab the Gauge
" Ancient genome-wide analysis on samples from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva, shows that Iron Age Scythians were a mix of Yamnaya people from the Russian Steppe and East Asian populations, similar to the Han and the Nganasan (Samoyedic people from northern Siberia). The East Asian admixture is pervasive across diverse present-day people from Siberia and Central Asia. "
Han aka Han Chinese
Nganasan a Siberian people
Obviously Mongoloid unless you're telling me the Chinese and Ngannasans don't have Mongoloid DNA.
You even said Central Asians Mongoloid admixture is not not because of the Mongol invasion. You're only partially correct, Central Asians already had Mongoloid during the Scythian times to the Turkic invasion however. Central Asia before Mongol invasion in 13th century were still primary physically Caucasoid and predominately Caucasoid. There were Mongoloid-Europoid people they were a minority until the Mongol-Turkic invasion. Central Asia used to be inhabited by Iranian Caucasoid like Scythians, Sogdians, Pamirs, Bactrians, Andronovo people until the massive genocide and rape of Iranian women by Mongolians army. Now everyone of these groups are extinct except for the Pamiris and Tajik people while the rest of Central Asians can look like straight up East Asian to half Chinese, Japanese, Korean.
Original people of Kazakhstan, Indo-European speaker. These were all racially people of Caucasoid and predominant Caucasoid.
http://i43.tinypic.com/sltx8l.jpg
Now Kazakhs today are predominant Mongoloid
http://www.eaglefalconer.com/images/...father-son.jpg
http://kazakhnomad.files.wordpress.c...ning-class.jpg
Original Kyrgyz from Siberia, union of only Turkic, Uralic, Indo-European.
ancient inhabitants of people from Kyrgyzstan were Caucasoid and half caucasoid
http://www.centralasia-biz.com/cabiz...cientman_5.jpg
http://www.centralasia-biz.com/cabiz...cientman_1.jpg
Now Kyrgyz today all predominant Mongoloid
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...-Kyrgy-005.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...yrgyz2_600.jpg
Original Kypchaks were Caucasoid with substantial Mongoloid
http://s2.forumimage.ru/uploads/2009...2870747162.jpg
However the Kypchaks known as Nogais are mixture of Kypchak and Mongol
They live in Russia North Caucasus and always claim to be descendants of Golden Horde. They are all predominant Mongoloid.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/dw3rit.jpg
The original people of Northern and Central Afghanistan were like Kushans a Indo-European people.
http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/kushan/i_kushan3.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li...vvdxo1_500.jpg
The Hazara are descendants of Mongol armies and Tajik or Balochi women
They claim to be descendants of Mongol and Genghis Khan although some Hazara prefer to call themsels the original inhabitants known as Kushans
http://sadani.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hazara2.jpg
http://www.fekrat.org/wp-content/upl...-in-behsud.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv...r3bo1_1280.jpg
Original people of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan
http://i45.tinypic.com/331j794.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/el9ybs.jpg
Many of the Uzbeks and Turkmen retained features of original Central Asians
Uzbeks were effected by both Turkic and Mongol
http://www3.utsidan.se/corax-e/Jeff'...olchildren.jpg
But Turkmen were already effected by original gokturks who were mixed Mongoloid. DNA does not shows Turkmen they were effected by Mongolians at all but by Siberian DNA. Even Turk have some Siberian DNA today.
http://i48.tinypic.com/kbpuf5.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2cz4nwz.jpg[/QUOTE]
There is no scientific evidence about Scythians and Sarmatians being IE, all the above posts are personal interpretations of rumours depending on the outworn works of soviet and british from 1940s
So, from the early writers: Anna Comnena says Turks are Scythians in her Alexiad (1148) likewise Michael Attaleiates in The History (1079) clearly express that Schythians are Pechenegs, he was present in Manzikert
Attachment 71661
Also, as I have written proeviously, Greek writer Priscus wrote Atilla's Huns spoke scythian and they are from the same origin with Scyhtians (448). I read the book myself
No need to write about the research of the many Turkic academics today like İlhami Durmus, O.Karatay, Laipanov etc:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...cPeoplesEn.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...criptionEn.htm
There are abundance of such findings I can give more if you wish but I cant see any proof on Iranian-theory other than 'mighty' wiki
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by ButlerKing
HA HA HAAAAA typical ButlerKing post, lots of pictures of shitty second world reconstructions, no factual data.
Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.
Fact: Central Asian males are majority R1 just as they have been since the Bronze Age, no Mongoloid replacement by Turks or Mongols:
Kyrgyz 61% R1a:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...and_North_Asia
Scythians R1a:
Quote:
Ancient Y-DNA data was finally provided by Keyser et al in 2009. They studied the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue- (or green-) eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilisation. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than those of central and southern Asia.[134] The ubiquity and utter dominance of R1a Y-DNA lineage contrasts markedly with the diversity seen in the mtDNA profiles.
-----
Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:
Quote:
Genetic analyses of the mummies showed that the Xiaohe people were an admixture from populations originating from both the West and the East. The maternal lineages of the Xiaohe people originated from both East Asia and West Eurasia, whereas the paternal lineages all originated from West Eurasia.[11]
Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that maternal lineages carried by the people at Xiaohe included mtDNA haplogroups H, K, U5, U7, U2e, T and R*, which are now most common in West Eurasia. Also found were haplogroups common in modern populations from East Asia: B5, D and G2a. Haplogroups now common in Central Asian or Siberian populations included: C4 and C5. Haplogroups later regarded as typically South Asian includedM5 and M*.[12]
The paternal lines of male remains surveyed nearly all – 11 out of 12, or around 92% – belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup R1a1, which are now most common in West Eurasia; the other belonged to the exceptionally rare paragroup K* (M9).[13]
Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women. By the time of the Mongol invasions of central Asia, most people were already partially Mongoloid. Even Genghis Khan himself was a byproduct of this mixture. He was not fully East Eurasian.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0161622
Quote:
Temujin (AD 1167-1227), better known by his title Genghis Khan (Universal Ruler), was a man of strongly Nordish racial ancestry. According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men). [Günther (1934) 185; Lamb (1928) 22.] The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan. [Günther (1934) 184.] Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan: "He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (1928) 23.] Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesugai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.] Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed". [Lamb (1928) 23.] As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.
All the returds are spawning again, how delightful
Quote:
Originally Posted by ButlerKing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab the Gauge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab the Gauge
Don't confuse yourself so badly. You are correct and wrong. Early Mongoloid admixture in Central Asian started out mostly with Mongoloid females and Europoid BUT AFTER THAT it was Mongoloid males and Mongoloid-Europoid males Europoid females. Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women and later Mongol-Turkic men mating with Europoid female. Have you forgotten Central Asians also have 40-90% European mtDNA ??? Kazakhs have 40-50% European women mtDNA with predominately East Asian male ancestry 70-90% (in many studies), Kyrgyz have mostly European Y-DNA 60-70% but how do you explain the fact they have 27-42.6% European women mtDNA ? Where do you find a pure Europoid Kyrgyz ???? THERE IS NONE AND THE ANSWER IS HERE.
Fact no.1
There is more Mongolian Y-DNA than mtDNA in Central Asia but more Siberian mtDNA than Y-DNA. And if you include the R1a Mongoloid males ( who have Europoid paternal ancestry but look as Mongoloid as any Chinese ) than it's actually more higher than we all think.
Fact no.2
R1a is in Central Asia is partially descended from partially/or heck properly even predominately Mongoloid males R1a.
Did you really think that the Mongoloid invaders of Central Asia were only strictly haplogroup C, O, Q, N, D ???? because Genghis Khan invasion of Central Asia included both Mongol and Turkic tribes. And if we are talking Turkic tribes it's likely they were already predominant Mongoloid males with R1a
The proof is right here
Pazyryk culture
" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "
Anayino culture
Sculptural reconstruction of men Lugovskyi burial
Ananyino culture. Gypsum. MMGerasimov work.
" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural mixed type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."
http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641901/tyurk1.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641909/f-u1.jpg
Kyrgyz may have 40-70% R1a ( depending on the Kyrgyz tribes, some Kyrgyz actually have very low R1a despite several studies show them with high )
West Eurasian mtDNA lineages ranging from 27% on the low end to 42.6% on the high end [37] with Haplogroup mtDNA H being the most predominant marker at 21.3% among the Kyrgyz.[37]
Do you understand what this means ?
It means Europoid mated with Mongoloid females and later Mongoloid males and predominant Mongoloid males mated with Europoid females in different periods of time and history.
http://i65.tinypic.com/8yvrx5.gif
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...rgyzMT_DNA.gif
Here is Kyrgyz west Eurasian mtDNA
Kyrgyz populations have frequencies of West Eurasian mtDNA lineages ranging from 27% on the low end to 42.6% on the high end.
Do you understand what this means ? It means in 1 in 4 (27%) or almost 1 in 2 ( 42.6% ) of the 5.5 million Kyrgyz population are also descended from Caucasian Europoid females. Or better said roughly a quarter to half of them are descended from Caucasoid females.
Look at these Kyrgyz, not one of them look even the slight Europoid.
http://static.ca-news.org/upload/enn...48341546.m.jpg
The fact that every modern genetic study shows Kyrgyz being super heavily Mongoloid MEANS all ancient Europoid females from Kyrgyzstan also had to mixed with Mongoloid males with C, O, Q, N and Predominately Mongoloid males with R1a
You won't find one single modern Kyrgyz who's a pure Europoid genetically with a pure R1a and Caucasian mtDNA H
Quote:
Temujin (AD 1167-1227), better known by his title Genghis Khan (Universal Ruler), was a man of strongly Nordish racial ancestry. According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men). [Günther (1934) 185; Lamb (1928) 22.] The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan. [Günther (1934) 184.] Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan: "He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (1928) 23.] Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesugai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.] Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed". [Lamb (1928) 23.] As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.
Nice source from Euro-centrist website, only thing Chinese never described these colored hair/eyes Mongols as western barbarian like they did with Uyghurs and Tocharian but instead they compared than them with a Mongoloid Tibetan male who had only one blue eye or with Heterochromia disease.
Here is your blue eye, red hair Odegei Khan looks 100% Mongoloid facially and genetically properly 95% Mongoloid.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eiPortrait.jpg
Physical appearance of Genghis Khan by his grandson Kublai Khan
" The closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan, which was drawn under the supervision of his grandson Khubilai during the Mongol Yuan dynasty and depicts Genghis Khan with typical Mongol features.[73] "
This is the closest depictions of Genghis Khan, the original was in black and white ink, not the 14th century coloured album
http://i61.tinypic.com/abcw1.jpg
Here is what Genghis Khan would have 100% looked like. Green/blue eye Mongol with hair, although extremely rare it occurs occasionally.
http://i61.tinypic.com/9910lc.jpg
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Duo9t6jJkAE/mqdefault.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2nbvsc3.jpg
And for your info there are 100% pure East Eurasian with those red hair/blonde hair blue eyes such as the Hmong
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s...digital043.jpg
Half Asians with blue eyes and red hair
http://i60.tinypic.com/27wxbwk.jpg
Typical Euro-centrist. Who give a crap if he is not pure East Eurasian when he is still around 98% East Eurasian or 90-95%. Do you see Muhammad Ali giving a crap that he is 1/4 White ? First try to show me a half Black even identify himself as some half white boy before you try that on a figure not even 5-10% white.
wir waren skythen und so'n scheiß
Why do people keep thinking Kyrgyz = Europoid males and Mongoloid females. From a genetic point you can only say most of them are Europoid male descendants and Mongoloid female but there is still large number of them descendant from Mongoloid males, Europoid females. We are talking about 27 - 42.6% West Eurasian mtDNA not 1-4% ( And never mind South Asian mtDNA which is 3-9% although most of them properly existed in pre-central Asians and looked a typical ancient Central Asian). Now thanks to anthropology of ancient people we shouldn't think about only haplogroup C, O, Q, N people invaded there was also Mongoloid faces males but with R1a inherited through their Scythian fathers.
Kyrgyz population 5.5 million/or 5,500,000
27% Caucasian mtDNA out of 5,500,000 = 1,485,000 Kyrgyz have Caucasian maternal ancestry
42.6% of Caucasian mtDNA out of 5,500,000 = 2,257,800 Kyrgyz have Caucasian maternal ancestry
Assuming those Caucasoid mtDNA wasn't raped or mated with than where the heck is one genetic data with Kyrgyz showing pure Europoid DNA or where is the crowed picture of them that don't look super Mongoloid ( I'm talking about crowed picture not cherrypicked indidividuals )
It means not just Mongoloid mtDNA got f*cked the same goes for Caucasoid mtDNA historically.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2010...GYZ2-popup.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...gyz_people.png
http://www.reckontalk.com/wp-content...rgyzstan-4.jpg
As for Uyghurs
They are descended from Tocharian, now assuming in ancient times half of them were pure Europoid and half were Mongoloid-Europoid (don't know what degree though ) One can assume have the Uyghur invasion of Tarim Basin, that almost all the intermixture were Mongoloid males and Europoid females and Mongoloid-Europoid females with both Caucasian mtDNA and Mongoloid mtDNA because ancient Tocharian were already this admixture but they heavily Europoid unlike today ancient Tocharians properly like ancient Scythians with 80-85% Europoid, 15-20% Mongoloid not like modern Uyghurs ( descendant of Tocharian ) who are 50% Mongoloid and only 50% Europoid.
" A study on mitochondrial DNA (therefore the matrilineal genetic contribution) found the frequency of western Eurasian-specific haplogroup in Uyghurs to be 42.6%, and East Asian haplogroup to be 57.4%[133] A further study shows that the western-Eurasian patrilineal Y-DNA haplogroup in Uyghurs is around 65% to 70%, and east-Asian Y-DNA haplogroup around 30% to 35%.[134] ( from 0% to 30-35% but mtDNA west Eurasian were properly the same )
According to the paper by Li et al.:
... the western East Asians are more closely related to Uyghurs than the eastern East Asians. ... STRUCTURE cannot distinguish recent admixture from a cline of other origin, and these analyses cannot prove admixture in the Uyghurs; however, historical records indicate that the present Uyghurs were formed by admixture between Tocharians from the west and Orkhon Uyghurs (Wugusi-Huihu, according to present Chinese pronunciation) from the east in the 8th century AD. The Uyghur Empire was originally located in Mongolia and conquered the Tocharian tribes in Xinjiang. Tocharians such as Kroran have been shown by archaeological findings to appear phenotypically similar to northern and central Europeans, whereas the Orkhon Uyghur people were clearly Mongolians. The two groups of people subsequently mixed in Xinjiang to become one population, the present Uyghurs. We do not know the genetic constitution of the Tocharians, but if they were similar to western Siberians, such as the Khanty, admixture would already be biased toward similarity with East Asian populations.
wir alle sind skythen und so'n scheiß
Tocharians were probably among the more clearly Caucasoid groups. They had DNA more resembling mainland Europeans and spoke a language similar to the Celtic branch. "Scythians" as a whole were not a singular people and as such each had varying degrees of being Caucasoid or Mongoloid. That is the nature of the steppes. Ethnicity was ALWAYS very fluid among the nomadic steppe tribes, and race didn't hold the same meaning.
There also wasn't any grand "Scythian" empire like some people believe, just loose coalitions of tribes that moved in fluid borders with few areas ever having an actual, stable population.
Yup there was not a Scythian state. There was also not a Scythian ethnicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Userius
And that's also true they weren't (at least not all) Iranians as the Stalinist falsified, fabricated, Pro-Ossetic hypothesis claimed.
The Ossetic thing is one of the biggest failures. Genetically, they're basically just Georgians/Kartveli or whatever you want to call them. The language also isn't as pure Iranic as it looks on first inspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Böri
In reality, regardless of ethnic composition, one could easily say that the Turkic kingdoms were far beyond anything "Scythians" accomplished other than the Kushan and Indo-Saka empires. Yet for some reason, people want to talk about some big loss that central Asia went through and act like their should be some kind of uprising.
Although it's proven they had Mongoloid admixture they were roughly on average 80% Europoid and 20% Mongoloid. They wold have still look Europoid with little to no Mongoloid features. We can see North Africans are 22-24% Sub-Saharan African but when you look at them the vast majority look like a straight hair Caucasoid males, some look Caucasoid with curly hair but very few look like a Ethiopian /Somalian type ( don't confuse the Black North African who are descendants of African slave trade or the Black/African north African 7-9th generation descendants, they make up a substantial of North Africa's population today but but are not proper north Africans) so the same would apply to Scythians and Tocharians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Userius
What you call "Tocharian" has nothing to do with the IE language found in the Tarim basin. Tochar is a well-known misnomer and is included within Turkic tribal groups by Mahmud al-Kashgari.Quote:
Originally Posted by Userius
The more west, the more mixed, buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ButlerKing
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure what people mean by it. Maybe the name means something else, but it does still refer to the same people that it always referred to. The only thing questionable is whether they were the same as the Yuezhi, who pushed out the Saka and became known as the Kushan, due to the former speaking a branch more akin to Anatolian and Celtic, and the latter speaking Bactrian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan
Let's just put this to rest though. Regardless of what the old Scythians were "more like", there's no real claim to them by anyone. Tomyris wasn't some Uzbek woman. Massagetae were bearded and hairy. Most Turkic national origin tales (AFAIK) speak of ancestral movement from further north in Siberia. There is ethnic and religious confusion through and through. The runes they used most clearly resemble the Turkic ones. Some religious aspects are more Zoroastrian especially in the case of fire rituals performed by Sarmatian tribes and references to an "Urmaysde" among the Saka, other things are more "nomadic" in origin, although not quite close to Turkic either. I'm not sure if any people from the area still divines events by throwing reeds or worships deities like Api or Tabiti.
Here's something I have to ask while hopefully not being offensive by doing so: Was there ever any real "Tengri" religion. The name is attested on some inscriptions, but was it ever really some supreme deity/ancestor that all Turkic people acknowledged to the same degree and that had specific rituals attached to it? It seems like the Tengriism mentioned today is the result of a lot of romanticism like many other such nostalgic revivals.
Scythian was the generic term for East Iranics. They were called 'Saka' in Indo-Iranic languages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Böri
Just because some non-Iranics were called Scythians centuries later doesn't mean that Scythians didn't exist. That was just an example of an inconsistency/mistake.
Ossetian people were descended from Sarmates, who are an Iranic people that were called Scythians in the past.
I'm glad someone else knows this. It's a huge misnomer that causes a lot of confusion. Tocharian languages should be renamed 'Tarimian languages'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan
Tokharistan was used to refer to Bactria when it was Iranic speaking in the first millennium AD and the name far predates any Turkic expansion into Middle Asia, so I disagree with the latter part of your comment.
Excuse me, have you taken a test? You must have some real Aryan DNA from the Andronovo. :) However, if you are not from Afghanistan, you must also be more South Asian-shifted than Afghans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingle
I did but haven't gotten my results yet. On 23andMe, the DNA extraction phase just finished this morning and they are on the DNA analysis phase now. Results might be in in a month from now I'm guessing. I'm from Northwest Pakistan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
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Alright. Let's wait for 'em. By the way, are you dark like stereotypical Pakistanis?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingle
No. I'll show you my pic later when I get home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
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Viking Rus wasn't Slavic, but Germanic for sure, but for sure they were the large minority among Slavs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Böri
Also, monk Nestor in the "Primary Chronicles" is saying to us that Slavic and Finnic tribes first expelled Vikings when they tried to invade modern day West Russia, and then after they (Rus' tribe) lost, they were invited by Slavic and Finnic tribes to rule among them, becouse they were in many conflicts before it.
He looks Azerbaijani tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Leto
The difference is that Tokharistan was just a region, not an ethnic name, its basically a Turkic word: Tokh "mountain" + ar "people", its the people of Togarmah, son of Gomer, one of the 24 Oghuz clans. Armenians, Georgians and Turks descended from this ancient guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingle
https://i.imgur.com/4jUP6Sm.png
And how can Turks have migrated into Middle Asia in the late 1st millennium AD, when there were already Turks in Europe in the early 1st millenium AD? :confused::confused::confused:
Gedrosia K3
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hazara @ 1.092248
2 Irula @ 4.759782
3 Kattunayakkan @ 5.122586
4 Nihali @ 6.114567
5 Madiga @ 8.526909
6 Chenchu @ 8.873101
7 Hallkipiki @ 9.133532
8 Mala @ 9.250433
9 Gond @ 10.722106
10 Kamsali @ 11.002162
11 Paniyas @ 11.521728
12 Bengali @ 11.555750
13 UP_Chamar @ 11.572104
14 Bhil @ 13.876436
15 Kallar @ 14.021095
16 Tharu @ 14.205913
17 Piramalai @ 14.480849
18 Kyrgyz @ 16.874592
19 Bhumij @ 17.202101
20 Kurumba @ 17.260006
Using 2 populations approximation:
..1 50% Nganasan +50% Tajik_Pomiri @ 0.000000
..6 50% Turkmen +50% Yukagir @ 0.425719
..8 50% Kyrgyz +50% Uzbek @ 0.431844
..9 50% Changapa +50% Kalash @ 0.485189
10 50% Changapa +50% Pashtun_Afghan @ 0.618841
12 50% UP_Brahmin +50% Yukagir @ 0.745615
14 50% Burusho +50% Yukagir @ 0.784907
16 50% Kyrgyz +50% UP_Caste @ 0.788417
17 50% GujaratiB +50% Yukagir @ 0.811810
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Altaian +25% Altaian +25% Chechen @ 0.000000 <---- !
Currently no evidence exists that Tengri (Täŋri) was some kind of a deity, let alone ‘religion’. It is not even clear if such notorious figures as Genghis khan believed in Tengri. ‘By the power of Eternal Heaven’ (Tengri) was used by the old Turks and later Mongols as an ultimatum, a statement indicating inevitability of fate, or coercing to acknowledge the inevitable. Tengri was a call to the heavens/sky. In medieval old Uighur documents, literary/religious works Tengri simply meant sky/heavens. Considering all of the above we can firmly attest that Christianity is in fact a religion of Tengri (our Father, who art in heaven). (NOT) Even cro-magnons had some kind of belief systems with an afterlife and likely called onto heavens. But to call their beliefs and practices as ‘religion’ would be farfetched.Quote:
Originally Posted by Userius
Sky God (Gök Tengri) was referred to as one God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaglakar
If it was simply nature or universe, that wouldn't be something countable.
Ibn Fadlan reports during his journey to Bulgar, while travelling lands of Oğuz Turks somewhere around north-east of Caspian.
Ibn Fadlān and the Land of Darkness
Arab Travellers in the Far North
chapter about Oghuz Turks
https://i.hizliresim.com/JQ4k0Y.jpg
...
https://i.hizliresim.com/76bMEY.jpg
That's around 920 or 921 when the Oghuz weren't Muslims.
'One' god is even more far fetched than considering Tengri a deity (among others) which in itself is far fetched. There is no 'reliable' evidence from the Turkic runes or Uighur documents or even with later Mongol conquests that 'Tengri' was some kind of a 'deity'. They did not have to be Muslims, they could have adopted notions and understanding from neighboring 'monotheistic' populations. 10th century is pretty late and these tribes were out of the 'core land'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Böri