So Celts were North Europeans after all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian

Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
44.2 DEU_MA
17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
44.2 Germanic
37.4 Celt
9.2 ImperialRoman
9.2 Roman

model:

Spoiler!

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

model:

Spoiler!

DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled

model:

They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

model:

Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA

model:

You can't reject hypothesis with Global25. G25 is meant to reproduce models deemed feasible by Admixtools (quoting Davidski here). But you can get good fits with these samples:

Code:

Target: Swiss_French Distance: 1.2019% / 0.01201917 56.6 Italic_IA 26.8 Celtic 10.6 DEU_MA 6.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial Target: Swiss_German Distance: 0.9720% / 0.00972016 42.0 Italic_IA 40.2 DEU_MA 15.4 Celtic 2.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Not only the fits are good, but the models also make a lot of sense. A lot of Germanic in Swiss Germans, and more Celtic and Italic in Frenchies. By the way, i used all of the Iron Age Swiss samples for Celtic and all of the Iron Age Italian samples for Italic_IA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gota_type_

Look at the dark blue: pre-celtic.

I have always seen that they are named pre-celtic or proto-celtic. Maybe here there is the real deal:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ia_200_BCE.PNG

I believe the "pre-Celtic" label(the "proto-Celtic" one is erroneous, you can't have "proto-Cetls" and Celts in the same place at the same time, that's contradictory to the meaning of a "proto-language") is given to Lusitanians and some others to indicate that they are IE but came before Celts.

The Constance and St Gallen samples here look a lot more realistic for authentic Celts or Proto-Celts, especially coupled with the Lech EBA/MBA samples. The picture is becoming clearer.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DFu7cwJOK...rope%2BPCA.png

There are still many >50% Steppe samples and only few ~30% Steppe samples, they were not like Basques.

They do indeed cluster the closest to Northern Europeans, Germanic and Insular Celtic peoples. Maybe they're of Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe when they got assimilated by the Celtic migrants coming from Western Europe without changing much of their genes? I guess the Romans did indeed changed their genes due to heavy admixture and so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamal900

They do indeed cluster the closest to Northern Europeans, Germanic and Insular Celtic peoples. Maybe they're of Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe when they got assimilated by the Celtic migrants coming from Western Europe without changing much of their genes? I guess the Romans did indeed changed their genes due to heavy admixture and so on.

Celts did not come from Western Europe into Switzerland, the core Hallstatt and La Tene region were around Southern and Middle Germany and surrounding regions respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpFork

Celts did not come from Western Europe into Switzerland, the core Hallstatt and La Tene region were around Southern and Middle Germany and surrounding regions respectively.

Hmm, then they could be mostly of Bell Beaker origins rather than coming from assimilated natives or mixed with the natives. I mean, the fact that the Swiss and others are genetically distinct from the late La Tene culture tells us that there had been admixtures and migrations to the region in Roman and early middle age periods. The Celts of Western Europe like France and Iberia seem genetically more or less distinct from these Celts, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpFork

There are still many >50% Steppe samples and only few ~30% Steppe samples, they were not like Basques.

I never claimed they were. I would expect all the >50% Yamnaya samples in Switzerland to be EBA/BB/CWC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

I never claimed they were. I would expect all the >50% Yamnaya samples in Switzerland to be EBA/BB/CWC.

There is even a 70% Steppe sample among the Landschaft something samples.

I still am curious where the low Steppe samples(30-35%) come from, we need dating to properly theorize though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Token

This is possible. Maybe it will turn out that we are heavily underestimating the impact of Romans in Europe. But these samples are too northern and i'm still trying to digest the idea. What i'm sure is that La Tené is as Celtic as you can get.

At first, the Romans couldn't tell the Celts and Germanic people apart and often confused them for each other. Only later they found out that Celts and Germanic people were distinct ethnic groups and they started to differentiate between the two. The fact is that both were described as tall, very pale, light-haired and- blue-eyed people. Anyways, who would have thought that the Celts originated in Germany/Austria while ALL Germanic tribes originated in Scandivanivia to move from there to Germany?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpFork

There is even a 70% Steppe sample among the Landschaft something samples.

I still am curious where the low Steppe samples(30-35%) come from, we need dating to properly theorize though.

he is corded ware and r1b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

The Constance and St Gallen samples here look a lot more realistic for authentic Celts or Proto-Celts, especially coupled with the Lech EBA/MBA samples. The picture is becoming clearer.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DFu7cwJOK...rope%2BPCA.png

the constance and st gallen samples are of early bronze age samples of mixed bb and eef stock, not celts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raizen

the constance and st gallen samples are of early bronze age samples of mixed bb and eef stock, not celts.

Who exactly do you think the Celts of Switzerland were descended from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharpFork

I believe the "pre-Celtic" label(the "proto-Celtic" one is erroneous, you can't have "proto-Cetls" and Celts in the same place at the same time, that's contradictory to the meaning of a "proto-language") is given to Lusitanians and some others to indicate that they are IE but came before Celts.

I have seen images of prerroman people in Spain and sometimes they write proto-celtic and other pre-celtic. In the first case we could think about the core of "celtic" that later expanded to the surrounded areas. In the 2º case we would be talking about people living there previously to the celts and adapting to the culture. There are some theories that say that celts came from the West.

https://i.imgur.com/P7Qqe8e.png

Anatolia_Barcin_N is the early Neolithic sample from Barcin, Turkey (Pinhasi et al. 2015), which also has the high level of WHG ancestry. Probably these Swiss Iron Age samples are a mixture of this Anatolian group from Turkey and Yamnaya herders from southern Russia.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xG...g=w200-h341-no

Quote:

Felix at GGT is in the process of uploading the genomes from the recent Pinhasi et al. paper. The file for the early Neolithic sample from Barcin, Turkey, is basically ready. I analyzed it with my K8 model and got these results (click on the image to enlarge).

I also ran an Identical-by-State (IBS) affinity test using the Human Origins dataset and around 1800 SNPs. The results broadly back up the K8 analysis, with southern Europeans topping the list.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/0...nome-from.html

Then finally they might let go off their fantasy of being descending from Spaniards?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

Who exactly do you think the Celts of Switzerland were descended from?

clearly they weren't descended from the aforementioned populations.

Other Ancient Swiss samples from Furtwaengler et al 2020. These are not as northern shifted.

Scaled

Code:

Alsace:SX32,0.135449,0.122879,0.053174,0.0646,0.024312,0.025937,0.00799,0.010615,-0.005931,-0.006743,-0.004872,-0.002248,-0.007284,-0.018029,0.020494,0.023468,0.019297,-0.009248,0.003394,0.016508,0.006489,0.002102,-0.005053,-0.004458,0.00467 Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.121791,0.126941,0.046763,0.032623,0.05201,0.009761,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.013294,0.016766,0.005196,0.007793,-0.018731,-0.022432,0.018322,0.028109,0.008605,-0.002407,-0.004148,0.002876,-0.003868,0.005317,-0.005176,-0.003374,-0.001916 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.121791,0.122879,0.053174,0.050388,0.031083,0.018686,-0.000235,0.003,0.002863,-0.001093,-0.00341,0.004796,-0.008325,-0.021744,0.020901,0.019888,0.008345,-0.004434,0.00176,0.012756,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.012448,0.006386,-0.002155 Constance:MX252,0.124067,0.137096,0.05242,0.039729,0.03693,0.009203,-0.00893,0.000692,0.016157,0.013485,0.001299,0.001948,-0.010406,-0.013487,0.017236,0.011005,-0.007302,0.003801,0.004399,0.003752,0.010482,-0.003215,-0.011955,0.001084,-0.005269 Constance:MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317 Constance:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.046009,0.041344,0.040623,0.003068,-0.00329,0.001615,0.010022,0.014397,-0.006658,0.001499,-0.007582,-0.018304,0.020494,-0.001724,-0.000522,-0.001774,0.015964,-0.002501,-0.001747,-0.001237,-0.00037,-0.007591,0.000359 Constance:MX265,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023 Constance:MX275,0.126344,0.128972,0.045632,0.040052,0.03139,0.005578,-0.00047,0.002308,0.018407,0.021504,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.026313,-0.014726,0.021444,0.008618,-0.000261,0.006841,0.006411,-0.003627,0.001123,0.012984,0.001356,-0.015183,0.002754 Constance:MX279,0.135449,0.138112,0.053928,0.052649,0.039392,0.013945,-0.002115,-0.004846,0.005931,0.015308,-0.010555,0.008243,-0.006541,-0.014175,0.013165,0.015778,0.011995,0.002154,-0.003017,-0.001,0.002246,0.003462,-0.012571,0.006145,-0.0097 Constance:MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437 Constance:MX286,0.12862,0.13405,0.049026,0.030685,0.041854,0.005857,-0.00235,0.001846,0.012885,0.020046,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.017839,-0.015551,0.012351,0.01432,0.011083,0.005574,-0.00352,0.001376,0.007362,0.018053,0.007641,-0.011809,-0.000239 Constance:MX288,0.132035,0.132019,0.061094,0.040698,0.048932,0.006972,0.008695,0.00923,0.010635,0.015672,-0.006333,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007844,0.017508,0.01127,0.005737,-0.0019,0.000503,0.006003,0.015597,0.005193,-0.00037,-0.003856,0.000838 St_Gallen:SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479

Unscaled

Code:

Alsace:SX32,0.0119,0.0121,0.0141,0.02,0.0079,0.0093,0.0034,0.0046,-0.0029,-0.0037,-0.003,-0.0015,-0.0049,-0.0131,0.0151,0.0177,0.0148,-0.0073,0.0027,0.0132,0.0052,0.0017,-0.0041,-0.0037,0.0039 Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.0107,0.0125,0.0124,0.0101,0.0169,0.0035,-0.0023,-0.001,0.0065,0.0092,0.0032,0.0052,-0.0126,-0.0163,0.0135,0.0212,0.0066,-0.0019,-0.0033,0.0023,-0.0031,0.0043,-0.0042,-0.0028,-0.0016 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.0107,0.0121,0.0141,0.0156,0.0101,0.0067,-0.0001,0.0013,0.0014,-0.0006,-0.0021,0.0032,-0.0056,-0.0158,0.0154,0.015,0.0064,-0.0035,0.0014,0.0102,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0101,0.0053,-0.0018 Constance:MX252,0.0109,0.0135,0.0139,0.0123,0.012,0.0033,-0.0038,0.0003,0.0079,0.0074,0.0008,0.0013,-0.007,-0.0098,0.0127,0.0083,-0.0056,0.003,0.0035,0.003,0.0084,-0.0026,-0.0097,0.0009,-0.0044 Constance:MX254_2,0.0115,0.0134,0.0147,0.0077,0.0136,0.0009,0.002,0.0027,0.0087,0.0136,-0.0027,0.005,-0.0111,-0.0104,0.0023,0.0137,0.0111,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0034,0.009,0.0012,-0.0087,0.0011 Constance:MX257,0.0106,0.0128,0.0122,0.0128,0.0132,0.0011,-0.0014,0.0007,0.0049,0.0079,-0.0041,0.001,-0.0051,-0.0133,0.0151,-0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0014,0.0127,-0.002,-0.0014,-0.001,-0.0003,-0.0063,0.0003 Constance:MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067 Constance:MX275,0.0111,0.0127,0.0121,0.0124,0.0102,0.002,-0.0002,0.001,0.009,0.0118,-0.0022,0.0053,-0.0177,-0.0107,0.0158,0.0065,-0.0002,0.0054,0.0051,-0.0029,0.0009,0.0105,0.0011,-0.0126,0.0023 Constance:MX279,0.0119,0.0136,0.0143,0.0163,0.0128,0.005,-0.0009,-0.0021,0.0029,0.0084,-0.0065,0.0055,-0.0044,-0.0103,0.0097,0.0119,0.0092,0.0017,-0.0024,-0.0008,0.0018,0.0028,-0.0102,0.0051,-0.0081 Constance:MX283,0.0111,0.0135,0.0152,0.0073,0.0165,-0.0011,0.0005,0.0013,0.0098,0.0193,-0.0034,0.0064,-0.01,-0.0066,-0.0006,0.0169,0.0128,0.0001,0.0032,-0.0019,-0.0012,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0085,0.0012 Constance:MX286,0.0113,0.0132,0.013,0.0095,0.0136,0.0021,-0.001,0.0008,0.0063,0.011,-0.0035,0.0027,-0.012,-0.0113,0.0091,0.0108,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0028,0.0011,0.0059,0.0146,0.0062,-0.0098,-0.0002 Constance:MX288,0.0116,0.013,0.0162,0.0126,0.0159,0.0025,0.0037,0.004,0.0052,0.0086,-0.0039,0.0026,-0.0088,-0.0057,0.0129,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0048,0.0125,0.0042,-0.0003,-0.0032,0.0007 St_Gallen:SX20,0.0114,0.0145,0.0148,0.0038,0.0179,0.0033,0.0005,0.0008,0.0068,0.0152,-0.0024,0.0084,-0.0132,-0.0056,0.0039,-0.0067,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0008,-0.0068,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0052,-0.004

all IndoEuropeans were "northern European"

The only sure is that Celts as a linguocultural group came from the same subgroup with the (genetically equally northern) Italics, instead of coming from the subgroup of Germanics/Balto-slavs

The one from St. Gallen (Eastern Switzerland Germanic Canton) caught my attention as it is quite close to a modern Basque\Iberian.

Code:

Target: St_Gallen:SX20 Distance: 2.4222% / 0.02422226 76.0 Basque 12.2 Balto_Slavic_North 8.4 Greek_Albanian 3.4 Northwest_European

Code:

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20 0.03170147 Basque 0.03749692 Belgian_French 0.04818528 Iberian 0.06029530 Northwest_European 0.06161228 North_Sea_Germanic 0.06551486 Balkan 0.06631236 Central_European 0.07260614 Scando_Germanic 0.07360623 Greek_Albanian 0.08978597 Polish_Ukrainian 0.10511355 Sicilian_Maltese 0.11101468 Balto_Slavic_South 0.11142811 Balto_Slavic_North 0.13360026 Finnic 0.13925607 European_Jewish 0.15240539 West_Turkish 0.16469766 Circassian 0.17427253 Levant 0.17453272 Azeri 0.17547694 Armenian_Assyrian 0.18694591 Abkhasian_Georgian 0.19241452 Iranian 0.19742813 Tajik 0.21328751 Udmurt 0.21576389 Northeast_African

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draug

Then finally they might let go off their fantasy of being descending from Spaniards?

Do you realize that "spaniards" as a nation did not exist in bronze age?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum

Do you realize that "spaniards" as a nation did not exist in bronze age?

Castilllians do exist since the Stone Age

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperDorian

Castilllians do exist since the Stone Age

in fact they pre-dated neanderthals

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjaboy

At first, the Romans couldn't tell the Celts and Germanic people apart and often confused them for each other. Only later they found out that Celts and Germanic people were distinct ethnic groups and they started to differentiate between the two. The fact is that both were described as tall, very pale, light-haired and- blue-eyed people. Anyways, who would have thought that the Celts originated in Germany/Austria while ALL Germanic tribes originated in Scandivanivia to move from there to Germany?

not all Celts were described as pale, for example if i am not mistaken those who lived in southern England and wales were described as dark

anyway, you, as everyone here make the mistake to see Celts as a racial group instead of linguo-cultural which they really were, and as a linguocultural group they were originated from the same subclade with Italics, just like Germanics came from the same subclade with Balto-slavs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raizen

clearly they weren't descended from the aforementioned populations.

That's a bold statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

That's a bold statement.

i mean, the ones you cited and the ones posted by brás garcias de mascarenhas are bronze age samples. there were no celts during the bronze age. clearly these iron age samples aren't descended from these basque-like bronze age people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum

Do you realize that "spaniards" as a nation did not exist in bronze age?

Good grief, the same people. Genes do not magically transform with rise of a nation. Were the people located in the territories of what became Spain radically different?
Or is quarreling for the sake of it a favorite pastime on this forum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draug

Good grief, the same people. Genes do not magically transform with rise of a nation. Were the people located in the territories of what became Spain radically different?
Or is quarreling for the sake of it a favorite pastime on this forum?

With only problem being that "celtic genes" is something that doesn't exist, except if we talk about proto-celts.

Celts were a linguocultural, not a racial group, and racially the celts who lived in Spain were southern European, just like those who lived in Britain were Northern European

But linguoculturally all celts were from the same subclade with Italics, which was different from the subclades that germans and Balto-slavs made up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raizen

i mean, the ones you cited and the ones posted by brás garcias de mascarenhas are bronze age samples. there were no celts during the bronze age. clearly these iron age samples aren't descended from these basque-like bronze age people.

I don't know where you got the information that they're all Early Bronze Age, but the ones on the North Euro PCA are mostly French like, not Basque.

Closest modern populations

Code:

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20 0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones 0.03088535 French_Occitanie 0.03111555 French_Auvergne 0.03197608 Spanish_Pais_Vasco 0.03291915 Basque_French 0.03300421 French_South 0.03484421 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.03543462 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre 0.03629089 Spanish_Lleida 0.03654432 Spanish_Pirineu 0.03657065 Spanish_Cantabria 0.03682866 Spanish_Aragon 0.03689219 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.03696268 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona 0.03747817 Spanish_Penedes 0.03768521 Spanish_Valencia 0.03780898 Swiss_German 0.03781292 Spanish_Cataluna 0.03788158 Spanish_Girona 0.03884917 Swiss_French 0.03936236 Spanish_Navarra 0.04042572 French_Paris 0.04063183 Spanish_Mallorca 0.04078563 French_Alsace 0.04080754 Spanish_Menorca Distance to: Constance:MX288 0.02803595 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03083126 French_Brittany 0.03226829 Welsh 0.03365536 Belgian 0.03386533 German 0.03455477 English 0.03524208 French_Nord 0.03531194 English_Cornwall 0.03547364 French_Paris 0.03597856 Dutch 0.03637184 Afrikaner 0.03740782 Scottish 0.03747238 Orcadian 0.03769526 French_Alsace 0.03904193 Swiss_German 0.03918642 Irish 0.03942022 French_Occitanie 0.03956136 French_Seine-Maritime 0.04058490 Norwegian 0.04090187 Austrian 0.04090947 Danish 0.04220673 Icelandic 0.04266048 Swedish 0.04378610 Shetlandic 0.04389883 French_Auvergne Distance to: Constance:MX286 0.03509933 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03631098 French_Occitanie 0.03674378 French_Paris 0.03750768 Swiss_French 0.03787910 French_Auvergne 0.03897932 French_Nord 0.03925783 Belgian 0.03950400 Swiss_German 0.04126165 French_Alsace 0.04275229 French_Brittany 0.04352278 Spanish_Soria 0.04408552 French_Seine-Maritime 0.04414478 Spanish_Penedes 0.04466215 French_Provence 0.04491353 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.04501119 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.04540743 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.04575465 Afrikaner 0.04640170 Spanish_Girona 0.04691225 Welsh 0.04694450 German 0.04760088 French_South 0.04813775 Spanish_Lleida 0.04854709 Spanish_Castello 0.04881681 Spanish_Mallorca Distance to: Constance:MX283 0.03230589 Spanish_Soria 0.03981424 French_Auvergne 0.03988847 French_Occitanie 0.04058295 French_South 0.04108385 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.04109183 Spanish_Castello 0.04238192 Spanish_Girona 0.04344088 Spanish_Penedes 0.04357718 Spanish_Pirineu 0.04367458 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.04370804 Swiss_French 0.04373152 Spanish_Cantabria 0.04483558 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona 0.04491178 Spanish_Cataluna 0.04500153 Spanish_La_Rioja 0.04501239 Spanish_Barcelones 0.04516028 Spanish_Lleida 0.04530823 French_Paris 0.04594034 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.04600792 Spanish_Mallorca 0.04695622 Spanish_Baleares 0.04780595 Basque_Spanish 0.04839098 French_Provence 0.04846419 Spanish_Valencia 0.04852166 French_Pas-de-Calais Distance to: Constance:MX279 0.03559744 French_Brittany 0.03697281 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03817387 Welsh 0.03890740 German 0.03909598 English 0.03980417 Orcadian 0.04009753 Belgian 0.04023323 Scottish 0.04060928 Irish 0.04128048 Dutch 0.04137305 French_Paris 0.04151491 English_Cornwall 0.04228042 French_Nord 0.04229089 Norwegian 0.04230891 French_Seine-Maritime 0.04290342 Afrikaner 0.04476497 Icelandic 0.04551239 French_Alsace 0.04568793 Austrian 0.04573442 Shetlandic 0.04632743 Swiss_German 0.04648867 Danish 0.04834292 Swedish 0.05030287 French_Occitanie 0.05192864 German_East Distance to: Constance:MX275 0.04154491 French_Occitanie 0.04172188 French_Paris 0.04186804 Belgian 0.04245748 French_Nord 0.04291958 French_Brittany 0.04293117 Swiss_German 0.04462638 French_Auvergne 0.04493266 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.04532147 Afrikaner 0.04597418 French_Alsace 0.04645036 Welsh 0.04684180 Swiss_French 0.04693606 French_Seine-Maritime 0.04907027 English 0.04917641 English_Cornwall 0.04942325 Orcadian 0.05018261 Spanish_Penedes 0.05059625 Scottish 0.05125731 German 0.05130226 French_South 0.05161571 Irish 0.05205530 French_Provence 0.05260661 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.05304746 Spanish_Girona 0.05317586 Dutch Distance to: Constance:MX265 0.03969155 Serbian 0.03976922 Croatian 0.04022650 Slovenian 0.04250646 Bosnian 0.04304069 Austrian 0.04336393 Hungarian 0.04476266 Montenegrin 0.04493139 Romanian 0.04566084 French_Alsace 0.04699986 Swiss_German 0.04763326 Italian_Northeast 0.04810671 Macedonian 0.04859118 French_Nord 0.04911344 German_East 0.05070030 French_Auvergne 0.05089369 Bulgarian 0.05114871 German 0.05127880 French_Occitanie 0.05273871 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.05321329 French_Seine-Maritime 0.05323399 Belgian 0.05359229 Czech 0.05502545 Moldovan 0.05510203 French_Provence 0.05576015 Spanish_Barcelones Distance to: Constance:MX257 0.03452833 French_Nord 0.03485311 Afrikaner 0.03489344 Belgian 0.03616876 Swiss_German 0.03777170 French_Brittany 0.03800962 French_Paris 0.03843301 French_Alsace 0.03960965 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.04026371 Welsh 0.04026807 French_Occitanie 0.04046330 German 0.04126861 French_Seine-Maritime 0.04149055 Orcadian 0.04229889 English_Cornwall 0.04231016 French_Auvergne 0.04242371 English 0.04251794 Scottish 0.04278253 Dutch 0.04367909 Austrian 0.04485161 Swiss_French 0.04502428 Irish 0.04680492 Danish 0.04811281 Shetlandic 0.04931205 French_Provence 0.04968622 Spanish_Penedes Distance to: Constance:MX254_2 0.03464891 French_Occitanie 0.03505670 French_Auvergne 0.03540269 Spanish_Soria 0.03686544 Swiss_French 0.03715282 French_Paris 0.03914016 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03991851 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.04038952 French_Nord 0.04044978 Swiss_German 0.04088626 Spanish_Penedes 0.04124982 Spanish_Girona 0.04142974 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.04170260 French_Alsace 0.04173687 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.04206262 Belgian 0.04243459 French_South 0.04250244 French_Provence 0.04297874 Spanish_Castello 0.04365573 Spanish_Pirineu 0.04396880 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona 0.04420092 Spanish_Mallorca 0.04438978 Spanish_Lleida 0.04467872 Spanish_Cantabria 0.04474864 Spanish_Barcelones 0.04633059 Spanish_Baleares Distance to: Constance:MX252 0.02867450 French_Brittany 0.02899975 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.02930563 French_Nord 0.03000764 Belgian 0.03186998 Afrikaner 0.03218271 Welsh 0.03246593 French_Paris 0.03316263 English 0.03337684 French_Alsace 0.03370685 English_Cornwall 0.03421264 Orcadian 0.03429417 Swiss_German 0.03547890 German 0.03559760 French_Occitanie 0.03603756 Scottish 0.03778936 French_Seine-Maritime 0.03779164 Dutch 0.03782317 Irish 0.03964841 French_Auvergne 0.04251057 Austrian 0.04339650 Danish 0.04385303 Icelandic 0.04431416 Swiss_French 0.04473173 Norwegian 0.04491427 Shetlandic Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64 0.03799296 Afrikaner 0.03833179 Dutch 0.04002283 Norwegian 0.04041198 Scottish 0.04065106 Irish 0.04066353 Welsh 0.04077529 Orcadian 0.04112688 French_Brittany 0.04180686 English 0.04347671 Icelandic 0.04351275 German 0.04391962 Danish 0.04455331 Shetlandic 0.04467514 English_Cornwall 0.04563719 Swedish 0.04609869 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.04635170 Belgian 0.04931600 French_Nord 0.05001031 Austrian 0.05106244 French_Seine-Maritime 0.05193586 French_Paris 0.05267469 French_Alsace 0.05391377 Swiss_German 0.05629058 Czech 0.05671703 German_East Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63 0.04214376 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.04385189 French_Paris 0.04495073 Belgian 0.04524909 Spanish_Soria 0.04573382 French_Occitanie 0.04617452 French_Nord 0.04632616 French_Brittany 0.04684478 French_Auvergne 0.04716852 Swiss_German 0.04735093 Swiss_French 0.04828434 Afrikaner 0.04895322 French_Alsace 0.05016951 Welsh 0.05096162 Spanish_Penedes 0.05111527 French_Seine-Maritime 0.05227525 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.05303119 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.05335623 German 0.05336671 French_Provence 0.05337996 English_Cornwall 0.05351699 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.05354011 Spanish_Girona 0.05378487 English 0.05475218 French_South 0.05483078 Dutch Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25 0.06993801 Icelandic 0.07070471 Swedish 0.07173822 Norwegian 0.07280312 Finnish 0.07425575 Shetlandic 0.07571393 Irish 0.07606833 Ingrian 0.07678251 Orcadian 0.07682608 Dutch 0.07696303 Danish 0.07707809 Scottish 0.07980351 Russian_Tver 0.08026368 Russian_Kostroma 0.08058397 Russian_Kursk 0.08223169 English 0.08226220 Russian_Orel 0.08241756 German_East 0.08252992 Mordovian 0.08278382 Estonian 0.08312881 Czech 0.08316832 Welsh 0.08351456 Finnish_East 0.08361867 Polish 0.08422633 Cossack_Kuban 0.08427535 Moldovan_o Distance to: Alsace:SX32 0.05203173 Norwegian 0.05278465 Swedish 0.05375439 Icelandic 0.05501683 Dutch 0.05619559 Irish 0.05626544 Danish 0.05723584 Scottish 0.05734577 Orcadian 0.05751033 Welsh 0.05803385 German 0.05835849 Shetlandic 0.05897453 English 0.05924862 Afrikaner 0.05930444 Slovakian 0.05985346 French_Brittany 0.06092336 Czech 0.06221253 Austrian 0.06262443 English_Cornwall 0.06351124 German_East 0.06480983 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.06635193 Hungarian 0.06646442 Moldovan_o 0.06671820 Belgian 0.06688318 French_Seine-Maritime 0.06949221 French_Nord

Closest ancient populations

Code:

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20 0.02983132 Iberia_North_IA 0.03306066 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA 0.03714842 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES 0.04296964 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.04336043 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.04355727 DEU_Roman 0.04376282 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.04462269 DEU_Lech_MBA 0.04525729 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.04545491 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.04576462 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.04580784 Iberia_East_IA 0.04627833 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA 0.04691385 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.04716263 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.04783207 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.04814215 Scythian_HUN 0.04835893 ITA_Etruscan 0.04852996 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE 0.04854718 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA 0.04926374 TZA_Zanzibar_Euro_outlier 0.05020003 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.05022880 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.05049328 Iberia_Menorca_LBA 0.05129977 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 Distance to: Constance:MX288 0.02880168 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.02958360 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.02991684 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.03160777 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.03220701 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03312345 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.03317076 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.03427474 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.03446687 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.03464767 England_IA 0.03476842 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.03511117 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso 0.03684276 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.03685537 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.03687212 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian 0.03710195 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.03773385 England_Roman 0.03792535 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.03860684 Scotland_MBA 0.03866332 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.04044924 England_Saxon 0.04111110 England_MBA 0.04191987 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.04199813 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA 0.04209998 ITA_Rome_Renaissance Distance to: Constance:MX286 0.02899260 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03223634 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.03315930 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.03392536 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.03503416 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.03573751 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.03797461 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.03844324 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.03862158 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.04013954 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.04024328 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.04037878 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.04318997 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.04363703 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.04393319 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.04600622 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.04615748 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.04661711 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.04697973 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA 0.04698020 Scythian_HUN 0.04815744 Iberia_Northeast_RomP 0.04820404 England_IA 0.04833146 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp 0.04893509 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES 0.04901189 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian Distance to: Constance:MX283 0.03293278 Iberia_Northeast_RomP 0.03400509 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03584375 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.03921559 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA 0.04025054 Iberia_East_IA 0.04159340 DEU_Roman 0.04313833 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA 0.04321458 Iberia_North_IA 0.04382837 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.04438431 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.04598191 Scythian_HUN 0.04629300 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES 0.04657793 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.04660060 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.04705778 Levant_LBN_MA_o6 0.04707784 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.04748602 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp 0.04841298 Iberia_Northeast_BA 0.04852268 Iberia_North_BA 0.04859269 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.04896763 DEU_Lech_MBA 0.04902221 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.04924452 Iberia_Menorca_LBA 0.05071721 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.05098784 Iberia_Formentera_MBA Distance to: Constance:MX279 0.03060598 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.03172088 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.03202649 England_IA 0.03366105 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.03401716 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.03530704 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.03632372 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.03744404 DEU_Alberstedt_LN 0.03758098 Scotland_MBA 0.03786429 Scotland_CA_EBA 0.03955140 SVK_Poprad_MA 0.03970668 England_MBA 0.03983085 England_Saxon 0.04010494 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.04015744 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.04026584 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso 0.04071318 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA 0.04071575 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.04094838 England_Roman 0.04143395 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.04188155 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian 0.04290407 Scythian_MDA_o 0.04313915 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian 0.04334874 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.04335328 England_CA_EBA Distance to: Constance:MX275 0.03255095 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.03346974 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03563921 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.03611511 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.03765763 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.03770571 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.03777814 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.03971882 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.04273038 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.04291577 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.04403833 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.04423544 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.04443532 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.04470616 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.04514966 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.04550861 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.04849383 England_IA 0.04851262 DEU_Alberstedt_LN 0.04896048 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.04908036 Scotland_LBA 0.04915283 England_Roman 0.04943718 Scotland_MBA 0.04988174 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.05045447 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA 0.05066606 England_MBA Distance to: Constance:MX265 0.03542273 Scythian_HUN 0.04869404 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.04885430 HUN_LBA 0.05079788 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.05094438 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.05113236 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.05127409 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.05158151 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.05361976 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES 0.05428776 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.05592452 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.05654290 HUN_MA 0.05681799 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.05688985 DEU_Lech_MBA 0.05707164 ITA_Proto-Villanovan 0.05709882 DEU_MA_ACD 0.05856957 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.05965355 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.05977254 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.05995948 DEU_Roman 0.06035096 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.06166494 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.06247493 DEU_MA 0.06258861 Iberia_North_IA 0.06277054 CZE_Early_Slav Distance to: Constance:MX257 0.03164986 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.03359787 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.03372523 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.03458048 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.03464499 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.03519844 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.03729042 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.03772570 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.03780823 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03844677 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.03894627 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.03897041 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.03898061 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.03953788 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.04005445 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.04071752 England_Roman 0.04081941 DEU_Alberstedt_LN 0.04095804 England_IA 0.04206274 HUN_MA 0.04280818 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.04369934 Scotland_MBA 0.04455537 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.04531871 England_MBA 0.04582787 Scotland_LBA 0.04670322 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian Distance to: Constance:MX254_2 0.02748222 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03384143 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.03404461 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.03485524 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.03770529 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.03832019 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.03996790 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.04040788 Scythian_HUN 0.04169987 Iberia_Northeast_RomP 0.04171188 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.04216712 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.04296143 DEU_Roman 0.04311850 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA 0.04327025 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.04405775 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.04406950 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.04476670 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES 0.04506512 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.04661213 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.04667230 Iberia_North_IA 0.04732083 HUN_MA 0.04734342 Levant_LBN_MA_o6 0.04795398 DEU_Lech_MBA 0.04824264 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA 0.04842968 ITA_Collegno_MA Distance to: Constance:MX252 0.02657625 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.02744859 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.02888263 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.02911688 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.02951410 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.03142429 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.03301108 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.03402757 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03412701 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.03453312 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.03470573 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.03506770 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.03518710 England_Roman 0.03535818 England_IA 0.03703436 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.03774570 Levant_LBN_MA_o2 0.03789653 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.03794584 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.03849152 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso 0.03878559 Scotland_CA_EBA 0.03959615 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.03966396 England_MBA 0.04065901 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.04081834 DEU_Alberstedt_LN 0.04152064 Scotland_LBA Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64 0.02818063 Scotland_CA_EBA 0.02820945 England_IA 0.02876678 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA 0.02881185 Bell_Beaker_FRA 0.02937394 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.02947692 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.02976406 England_CA_EBA 0.03014559 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.03026153 Scotland_MBA 0.03127756 DNK_MN_B 0.03137907 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.03154808 England_MBA 0.03227903 DEU_Alberstedt_LN 0.03371557 IRL_BA 0.03374856 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso 0.03456345 England_LBA 0.03475651 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.03481135 NLD_BA 0.03501009 DNK_LN 0.03547121 England_Saxon 0.03583488 Scythian_MDA_o 0.03598153 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian 0.03673016 DEU_Unetice_EBA 0.03692365 Bell_Beaker_England 0.03724869 CZE_EBA Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63 0.03469585 DEU_Lech_EBA 0.03730217 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1 0.03735921 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C 0.04027281 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria 0.04212112 Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.04348337 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp 0.04364320 Bell_Beaker_CZE 0.04392996 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL 0.04397713 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA 0.04451788 DEU_Lech_BBC 0.04749289 England_IA 0.04788724 HUN_MA_Szolad 0.04894958 SVK_Poprad_MA 0.04928025 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.04944545 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3 0.04970316 ITA_Rome_Renaissance 0.04975358 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.05071739 Scotland_MBA 0.05091948 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA 0.05159235 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp 0.05222343 ITA_Collegno_MA 0.05262258 Iberia_Northeast_RomP 0.05295771 Scotland_CA_EBA 0.05320187 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian 0.05374278 DNK_LN Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25 0.02319568 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA 0.02494720 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA 0.02595202 Corded_Ware_DEU 0.02623105 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA 0.02855520 Corded_Ware_CZE 0.02893607 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA 0.02982545 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA 0.03157967 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 0.03173934 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 0.03215099 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA 0.03244667 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA 0.03255886 BGR_MLBA 0.03325164 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1 0.03449200 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA 0.03467709 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 0.03552451 RUS_Poltavka_o 0.03740282 KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1 0.03754598 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture 0.03784358 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA 0.03874109 KAZ_Mys_MLBA 0.03913496 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 0.03959102 KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo 0.03970918 UZB_Kokcha_BA 0.04168389 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 0.04196389 KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA Distance to: Alsace:SX32 0.03314044 Scythian_MDA_o 0.03396359 Bell_Beaker_FRA 0.03461773 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA 0.03730521 NLD_BA 0.03744346 CZE_EBA 0.03851642 DNK_LN 0.03887085 England_CA_EBA 0.03897059 Scotland_MBA 0.03955396 Scotland_CA_EBA 0.03956758 Bell_Beaker_NLD 0.03993640 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture 0.04013824 DEU_Unetice_EBA 0.04026409 Bell_Beaker_England 0.04047459 SWE_LN 0.04135591 Bell_Beaker_POL 0.04350174 IRL_BA 0.04360472 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main 0.04421115 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso 0.04421563 England_IA 0.04428159 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale 0.04428208 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian 0.04451972 England_MBA 0.04461023 DNK_MN_B 0.04483423 CZE_Unetice_EBA 0.04502461 CZE_Bilina_BA

Celts didn't materialise out of thin air, they would have almost certainly been mostly a continuation of the people from the same area/s in the Bronze Age, and Proto-Celtic existed in the LBA. Ancient samples so far suggest a French-like genetic profile had already developed in Bronze Age Central Western Europe. The samples in the OP would be a quite a departure from that, if they were indeed Iron Age.

Code:

Distance to: DEU_Lech_EBA 0.02264165 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.02347948 Belgian 0.02403917 French_Nord 0.02580453 French_Brittany 0.02615344 French_Paris 0.02702302 French_Alsace 0.02707452 Swiss_German 0.02899132 German 0.02902555 Afrikaner 0.02989720 Welsh 0.03161234 French_Seine-Maritime 0.03228871 French_Occitanie 0.03274724 English 0.03295852 Austrian 0.03354243 English_Cornwall 0.03431761 Swiss_French 0.03449853 French_Auvergne 0.03459784 Dutch 0.03545138 Scottish 0.03587274 Orcadian 0.03708521 Irish 0.03999336 Danish 0.04076622 Shetlandic 0.04132257 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.04150015 French_Provence

Code:

Distance to: CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany 0.03516374 French_Nord 0.03563729 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03706400 French_Occitanie 0.03712202 German 0.03717849 French_Alsace 0.03789837 French_Paris 0.03797138 Belgian 0.03847557 French_Brittany 0.03975828 Swiss_German 0.03995990 Austrian 0.04053974 French_Auvergne 0.04088379 English_Cornwall 0.04119886 Welsh 0.04175909 English 0.04182437 Afrikaner 0.04341866 Orcadian 0.04425152 German_East 0.04447228 Dutch 0.04452922 French_Seine-Maritime 0.04483823 Scottish 0.04641699 Danish 0.04750609 French_South 0.04761147 Hungarian 0.04839793 Slovenian 0.04850793 Spanish_Barcelones

Code:

Distance to: Bell_Beaker_CHE 0.02573222 French_Auvergne 0.02667249 French_Occitanie 0.02810113 Swiss_German 0.02844153 Swiss_French 0.02886573 Spanish_Penedes 0.02891363 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona 0.03102337 French_Nord 0.03244797 French_Alsace 0.03259581 French_Provence 0.03276224 Spanish_Girona 0.03315350 Spanish_Lleida 0.03376662 French_Paris 0.03384515 Spanish_Catalunya_Central 0.03401968 Spanish_Mallorca 0.03447173 Spanish_Barcelones 0.03465609 Belgian 0.03508929 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona 0.03526661 Spanish_Cataluna 0.03539327 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.03588166 Spanish_Pirineu 0.03618790 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre 0.03695781 French_South 0.03696393 Spanish_Valencia 0.03727343 French_Pas-de-Calais 0.03741468 Spanish_Castello

How likely is it that North Europeans migrated out of modern Central Europe to populate scandinavia?I think it's a possible scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

The one from St. Gallen (Eastern Switzerland Germanic Canton) caught my attention as it is quite close to a modern Basque\Iberian.

Code:

Target: St_Gallen:SX20 Distance: 2.4222% / 0.02422226 76.0 Basque 12.2 Balto_Slavic_North 8.4 Greek_Albanian 3.4 Northwest_European

Code:

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20 0.03170147 Basque 0.03749692 Belgian_French 0.04818528 Iberian 0.06029530 Northwest_European 0.06161228 North_Sea_Germanic 0.06551486 Balkan 0.06631236 Central_European 0.07260614 Scando_Germanic 0.07360623 Greek_Albanian 0.08978597 Polish_Ukrainian 0.10511355 Sicilian_Maltese 0.11101468 Balto_Slavic_South 0.11142811 Balto_Slavic_North 0.13360026 Finnic 0.13925607 European_Jewish 0.15240539 West_Turkish 0.16469766 Circassian 0.17427253 Levant 0.17453272 Azeri 0.17547694 Armenian_Assyrian 0.18694591 Abkhasian_Georgian 0.19241452 Iranian 0.19742813 Tajik 0.21328751 Udmurt 0.21576389 Northeast_African

Can we stop talking about this Basque stuff without a reason? It looks like a North-East Spaniard or a South-West French and it's an outlier compared to the average, plus among the historical samples from Spain it's close to only 2 of them, for both of which we have good reason to believe they have Celtic admixture themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum

anyway, you, as everyone here make the mistake to see Celts as a racial group instead of linguo-cultural which they really were, and as a linguocultural group they were originated from the same subclade with Italics, just like Germanics came from the same subclade with Balto-slavs

Most historical "linguo-cultural" groups correlated with genetic similarities to some extent, so expecting genetic similarities or expecting genetic shifts towards the origin population when the socio-linguistic situation changes isn't unwarranted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voskos

How likely is it that North Europeans migrated out of modern Central Europe to populate scandinavia?I think it's a possible scenario.

I mean isn't that already confirmed considering the origins of Battle-Axe culture?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raizen

i mean, the ones you cited and the ones posted by brás garcias de mascarenhas are bronze age samples. there were no celts during the bronze age. clearly these iron age samples aren't descended from these basque-like bronze age people.

Again, how can't they be "basque"-like when the average Steppe admixture is 45%? Only 2 samples are under 35% and approach the kind of admixture Basques have.

Bronze Age British/Irish averages, modern Insular Celtic averages, and potential Celts / Proto-Celts / Proto-Italo-Celts from Central Europe.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2RMKsTV/Opera-...-github-io.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

Bronze Age British/Irish averages, modern Insular Celtic averages, and potential Celts / Proto-Celts / Proto-Italo-Celts from Central Europe.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2RMKsTV/Opera-...-github-io.png

again, these samples are not potential proto-celts, they still spoke some form of PIE. proto-celts are the ones posted by op

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raizen

again, these samples are not potential proto-celts, they still spoke some form of PIE. proto-celts are the ones posted by op

No they did not speak PIE in Bronze Age Western Europe. They'd have spoken some form of Proto-Italo-Celtic at least, if they spoke an IE language. The ones Token posted are supposed to be Iron Age, so not really Proto-Celts but actual Celts.

Here are the Aargau samples from the OP on the right, by comparison.
https://i.postimg.cc/rwPx1HBp/Opera-...-github-io.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creoda

No they did not speak PIE in Bronze Age Western Europe. They'd have spoken some form of Proto-Italo-Celtic at least, if they spoke an IE language. The ones Token posted are supposed to be Iron Age, so not really Proto-Celts but actual Celts.

Here are the Aargau samples from the OP on the right, by comparison.
https://i.postimg.cc/rwPx1HBp/Opera-...-github-io.png

i doubt they even spoke IE. i bet they spoke something related to Rhaetian. most of western europe didn't spoke ie at this time (prob. even britain, with pictish). if they are early Iron Age they could very well be hallstatt culture and thus proto-celtic. i believe proto-italo-celtic can be explained by a later wave of steppe ancestry coming from corded ware proto-unetice (unetice is predecessor of urnfield, which is predecessor of hallstatt). there is a unetice sample in G25, take a look at it

i was expecting some roman admixture in britain and collateral roman admixture into ireland, culture doesn't change out of nowhere. that would explain this southern shift.

Target: MX195_scaled
Distance: 4.1907% / 0.04190749 | ADC: 2x
100.0 Norwegian

Target: MX192_scaled
Distance: 4.0441% / 0.04044076 | ADC: 2x
100.0 Norwegian

Target: MX190_scaled
Distance: 4.2110% / 0.04211028 | ADC: 2x
65.8 Icelandic
34.2 Swedish

Target: MX188_scaled
Distance: 4.2699% / 0.04269943 | ADC: 2x
80.8 Norwegian
19.2 Afrikaner