My paleo-Balkan ancestors were Thracians

I realized that most of my pre-Slavic ancestors were Thracians, not Ilyrians.

This is PCA K15 position of ancient examples of western Balkans (Ilyrians) and Eastern Balkans (Thracians).

https://i.imgur.com/XCw7Onp.png


This is their scaled modeling with modern populations

Illyrians are more related to north Italy:

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Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 2.3731% / 0.02373117

85.4 Italian_Lombardy
4.6 Albanian
3.4 Italian_Bergamo
3.0 Sardinian
2.2 Darginian
1.4 Slovenian

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...while Thracians are related to Sardinians and Greeks

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Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.5746% / 0.02574585

35.0 Sardinian
20.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
16.4 Greek_Ionia
14.0 Albanian
12.6 Italian_Molise
1.4 Greek_Kos

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Now compare my position on K15 diagram with line between proto-Slavs (Belgorod) and Thracian example:

https://i.imgur.com/pSOpKlG.png

It is very close to this line.


Compare my nMonte K15 results with results of ancient examples.

Beside Slavic, it is Sardinians, Greeks and Bulgarians. No northern Italians here.

https://i.imgur.com/ss6rX5T.jpg

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...nes-K15-nmonte

Agree :)

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Originally Posted by Dušan

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BGR_IA doesn't plot right in gedmatch calculators.

in global25 you can see that actually most of the Balkans, including Serbs, can be modelled as BGR_IA+Baltic/Slavic influence.

only Croats from Zagreb, Slovenian and Hungarians get Slavic + HRV_IA instead.

also what's interesting, Anatolia_IA sample from before the Cimmerian invasion was very similar to BGR_IA.

This could mean two things:

1) Not all Dinaric area was settled by Illyrians, some of it was settled by Thracian-like people

or

2) Most of my ancestors were by origin eastern from Dinaric area, possibly Kosovo, Moravian part of Serbia, Macedonia.

I think these samples are not enough, we can't make conclusions about those populations in general.

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

BGR_IA doesn't plot right in gedmatch calculators.

in global25 you can see that actually most of the Balkans, including Serbs, can be modelled as BGR_IA+Baltic/Slavic influence.

only Croats from Zagreb, Slovenian and Hungarians get Slavic + HRV_IA instead.

also what's interesting, Anatolia_IA sample from before the Cimmerian invasion was very similar to BGR_IA.

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Not true at all. My entire family is modeled as Belgorod + Bergamo, I get same on Global 25.

What Croats from Zagreb? It's Croatian average and I cluster close to it.

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Originally Posted by Ylla

I think these samples are not enough, we can't make conclusions about those populations in general.

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We can, for Croatia at least. All BA samples were same like this one, both from Panonnia and Dalmatia.

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

BGR_IA doesn't plot right in gedmatch calculators.

in global25 you can see that actually most of the Balkans, including Serbs, can be modelled as BGR_IA+Baltic/Slavic influence.

only Croats from Zagreb, Slovenian and Hungarians get Slavic + HRV_IA instead.

also what's interesting, Anatolia_IA sample from before the Cimmerian invasion was very similar to BGR_IA.

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What is its right position in K15 map-diagram?

Btw Croats who can't be modeled with ancient Croatian samples have origins from central and eastern Balkans, simple as that. Lot of people came from east during Ottoman times.

My Paleo-Balkan ancestors were clear Illyrians.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Not true at all. My entire family is modeled as Belgorod + Bergamo, I get same on Global 25.

What Croats from Zagreb? It's Croatian average and I cluster close to it.

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the Croatian samples in Global25 are from Zagreb and "mainland". Maybe Dalmatian Croats would get BGR_IA.

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

the Croatian samples in Global25 are from Zagreb and "mainland". Maybe Dalmatian Croats would get BGR_IA.

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I am Dalmatian Croat and in Dalmatia lived Illyrians.
Hungarian samples are from Budapest and Slovenian from Ljubljana so? But you didn't mention that. People who get Thracians are not native here.

And no, northern Croats are not modeled like this.
Ph2ter and his family are Slavic amd Celtic, not Slavic and Illyrian. He never gets these samples on Global 25, unlike me.

According to gedmatch most of Serbs are Bulgarians, would you trust such a shit calculator my friend? It cant tell your modern population let alone ancient.

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

According to gedmatch most of Serbs are Bulgarians, would you trust such a shit calculator my friend? It cant tell your modern population let alone ancient.

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Big fail. He is not close to Bulgarians at all.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Big fail. He is not close to Bulgarians at all.

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Not really, Im talking about Serbians in general, eurogenes shifts them towards eastern Balkans first.

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Originally Posted by Dušan

What is its right position in K15 map-diagram?

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something like Central Greece

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

Not really, Im talking about Serbians in general, eurogenes shifts them towards eastern Balkans first.

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Yes and why is that weird? They are pretty different from us. Serbia itself was mostly Thracian zone except western Serbia.

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

According to gedmatch most of Serbs are Bulgarians, would you trust such a shit calculator my friend? It cant tell your modern population let alone ancient.

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Thracians didn't live just in todays Bulgaria, but in large parts of todays Serbia.

There were also Dardanians who were between Thracians and Ilyrians, they have lived in most of south Serbia and Kosovo.

I wonder if is that Ilyrian (north Italian-like) sample is representative to all Dinaric area, including Herzegovina or not?
Maybe southeast part of Dinaric Alps have different genetic, closer to that Thracian sample.
Because, most of Krajina Serbs were settled in Krajina from Herzegovina.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Yes and why is that weird? They are pretty different from us. Serbia itself was mostly Thracian zone except western Serbia.

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I'm talking about innacurate calculator, nothing to do with race or your suggesting agenda that Serbs and Croats are close like Koreans and French

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

I'm talking about innacurate calculator, nothing to do with race or your suggesting agenda that Serbs and Croats are close like Koreans and French

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It is not innacurate at all when all pro studies say the same lol. And dont imply what I never said.

Dusan is very Slavic and different from Croats.

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Thracians didn't live just in todays Bulgaria, but in large parts of todays Serbia.

There were also Dardanians who were between Thracians and Ilyrians, they have lived in most of south Serbia and Kosovo.

I wonder if is that Ilyrian (north Italian-like) sample is representative to all Dinaric area, including Herzegovina or not?
Maybe southeast part of Dinaric Alps have different genetic, closer to that Thracian sample.
Because, most of Krajina Serbs were settled in Krajina from Herzegovina.

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Could be, we still lack southern Illyrian results from Albania proper for example. They could be different (more influenced by Greeks)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Thracians didn't live just in todays Bulgaria, but in large parts of todays Serbia.

There were also Dardanians who were between Thracians and Ilyrians, they have lived in most of south Serbia and Kosovo.

I wonder if is that Ilyrian (north Italian-like) sample is representative to all Dinaric area, including Herzegovina or not?
Maybe southeast part of Dinaric Alps have different genetic, closer to that Thracian sample.
Because, most of Krajina Serbs are settled in Krajina from Herzegovina.

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You guys don't understand me, Im saying that calculator is unreliable and that it doesn't show modern populations correctly letalone you finding out your ancient ancestors.
You could find those out via halogroups or ancestry not gedmatch. And to add proto-Dardanians were Illyrians as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

And no, northern Croats are not modeled like this.

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those samples from Zagreb are. and Hungarians and Slovenians on g25 too.

Seems some of you don't understand these samples are from Global 25, not gedmatch (but it says the same so it doesnt matter)

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

You guys don't understand me, Im saying that calculator is unreliable and that it doesn't show modern populations correctly letalone you finding out your ancient ancestors.
You could find those out via halogroups or ancestry not gedmatch. And to add proto-Dardanians were Illyrians as far as I know.

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It is not certian that they were Illyrians.

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The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani), or Dardanians (Δαρδανίωνες) were an Indo-European tribe which settled in the region that took its name from them of Dardania,[1][2] at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. Their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe is uncertain.[3][4][5] They and their territory were by most writers not considered part of Illyria.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

those samples from Zagreb are. and Hungarians and Slovenians on g25 too.

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Because they are not northern Croats. They are average Croats and hunderds of tousands of southern and eastern Croats live in Zagreb.

Actuall northern Croats are like Ph2ter and his family, who are from smaller towns in NW Croatia.

I am not close to northern Croats but close to average Croats.
Hungarians also have large German and exotic minor input, less Slavic too. They Illrian part is quite irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Could be, we still lack southern Illyrian results from Albania proper for example. They could be different (more influenced by Greeks)

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Yes. We need samples from east Herzegovina and Montenegro, to see were they closer to modern North Italians, or to modern Sardinians and Greeks.

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Yes. We need samples from east Herzegovina and Montenegro, to see were they closer to modern North Italians, or to modern Sardinians and Greeks.

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Agree.
PS this Thracian close to south/central Italian and Greeks.
His Sardinaian part is from older Balkan neolithic population.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

It is not innacurate at all when all pro studies say the same lol. And dont imply what I never said.

Dusan is very Slavic and different from Croats.

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Lol, Gedmatch is literally a calculator, how you can get out ancient ancestry out of it.

Let's say there a guy who contains number 1 and 10 - gedmatch matches him with number 5
If theres a guy who contains number 2 and 11 gedmatch matches him with number 5 too
Do those 2 guys share anything? Absolutely not, but they plot the same, that's how gedmatch works, now tell me how is that supposed to tell you, your anciesnt ancestry, it's alogical.
As I said you Y-DNA and DNA testing proves your ties, not gedmatch. Or websites like yourancientancestry where basically modern populations are just substitued by the old ones, it's even more hilarious seeing people paying for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

Lol, Gedmatch is literally a calculator, how you can get out ancient ancestry out of it.

Let's say there a guy who contains number 1 and 10 - gedmatch matches him with number 5
If theres a guy who contains number 2 and 11 gedmatch matches him with number 5 too
Do those 2 guys share anything? Absolutely not, but they plot the same, that's how gedmatch works, now tell me how is that supposed to tell you, your anciesnt ancestry, it's alogical.
As I said you Y-DNA and DNA testing proves your ties, not gedmatch. Or websites like yourancientancestry where basically modern populations are just substitued by the old ones, it's even more hilarious seeing people paying for that.

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This is not gedmatch. Wtf?
Ancient samples are on G25 and we compared to to which modern populations they are closest. What's not clear here?

Also autosomal >>> Haplogroups

Illyrians were probably genetically diverse with those from modern day Serbia possibly being genetically closer to BGR IA than to HRV IA. I wouldn't use HRV IA as representative of all IA Illyrians.

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Originally Posted by Mingle

Illyrians were probably genetically diverse with those from modern day Serbia possibly being genetically closer to BGR IA than to HRV IA. I wouldn't use HRV IA as representative of all IA Illyrians.

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It could be. Maybe they were not homogeneous population.
We need samples from modern Serbia, Montenegro and eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

This is not gedmatch. Wtf?
Ancient samples are on G25 and we compared to to which modern populations they are closest. What's not clear here?

Also autosomal >>> Haplogroups

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Then I don't know, I thought g25 is some calc from gedmatch, who knows.

+ I never mentioned halogroups being more important than autosomal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mingle

Illyrians were probably genetically diverse with those from modern day Serbia possibly being genetically closer to BGR IA than to HRV IA. I wouldn't use HRV IA as representative of all IA Illyrians.

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Pre-Illyrians from far eastern Slavonia were same North Italian like.
Serbia is fringe of Illyrian world and if they were closer to Thracians it means they were mixed with them, simple as that.

Illyrians proper were in Albania. Than such term spread to include other western Balkan barbarians.
But haplogroups of northern Illyrians from Croatia are typical Albanian, so they were obviously very related.

two closest models including Av2 for Balkan ethnicities:

Albanian
"37.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 62.6 % Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2"
"68.5 % BGR_IA + 31.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2"

Bosnian
"56.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 43.4 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.01"
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0101"

Croat
"56.9 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 43.1 % ITA_Rome_MA" "0.0089"
"59.8 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 40.2 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"

Bulgarian
"35.1 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 64.9 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0061"
"44.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 55.8 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0086"

Hungarian
"63.5 % DEU_MA_ACD + 36.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" "0.0091"
"45.3 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 54.7 % HUN_MA_Szolad" "0.0095"

Serb
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" "0.0091"
"45.3 % BGR_IA + 54.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" "0.0104"

Montengrin
"52.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 47.3 % ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o" "0.0083"
"46.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 53.4 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0084"

Macedonian
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0097"
"49.5 % BGR_IA + 50.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" 0.0115

Romanian
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"
"38.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 61.6 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0096"

Slovenians
"58.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.5 % ITA_Rome_MA" "0.009"
"60.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 39.4 % ITA_Proto-Villanovan" "0.0094

Morava river in Serbia is accepted as ethnical border between Illyrian and Thracian tribes by most scholars. There was obviously transitional Thraco-Illyrian zone as well.
https://st.depositphotos.com/1287721...-of-serbia.jpg

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Originally Posted by TheMaestro

Then I don't know, I thought g25 is some calc from gedmatch, who knows.

+ I never mentioned halogroups being more important than autosomal.

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Well those samples from Croatia had J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and sample from Bulgaria E1b.

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Originally Posted by Feiichy

Illyrians proper were in Albania. Than such term spread to include other western Balkan barbarians.
But haplogroups of northern Illyrians from Croatia are typical Albanian, so they were obviously very related.

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When?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...yricum_map.png

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Originally Posted by Hulu

When?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...yricum_map.png

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This map is incorrect anyway.

Constantine retook Dacia in 334 AD after a decade long campaign, which included the construction of a second bridge over the Danube.