Scytho-Turkic Z93 branch Z2125 vs. Indo-Aryan migration theory

[Petros Houhoulis]

Guys, the Scytho-Iranic theory is an european dogma solely based on linguistic pseudo-science.

It's based upon Herodotus. You have nothing to dispute Herodotus.

If you still believe this myth (itself 100% refuted by genetics, anhtropology, ethnography etc)... it's up to you, I can only welcome you the the 21st century. The Indo-European culture is not a rival with the Turkic culture,

We have proof of the Indo-Europeans' culture since many thousand years ago. The Turkic's origins elude us in terms of history, and you'd better get used to it. The only thing left is genetics, and in terms of genetics all of Asia is mixed beyond reasonable recognition.

their origins and histories are much interspersed, the protestations appearing in the posting are aimed solely at distortions and misrepresentations endemic to the Eurocentric offshoot of the science, and a full credit must be given to Eurocentrism for the studies that unwittingly advanced Turkology.

Turkology is mere speculation prior to the time of Jesus Christ, and much later too! Can't help you if you are a rather modern people...

Coming to haplogroup C:

1. hp C is not limited to Altaics.

It is present to many people, but it is present to ALL OF THE ALTAICS. That's what matters.

2. hp R is not limited to IE's.

It is present to ALL OF THE IndoEuropeans. That's what matters.

3. Language groups share multiple hp's!

Everybody is a bastard since thousand of years ago, or else we would all be retards. We are trying to trace the original haplogroups of every language family, not those who were picked up along the way.

4. Altaic is not even an accepted family, and it never will.

It is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

Altaic /ælˈteɪɨk/ is a proposed language family of central Eurasia. Various versions include the Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Koreanic, and Japonic languages.^[1] These languages are spoken in a wide arc stretching from northeast Asia through Central Asia to Anatolia and eastern Europe.^[2] The group is named after the Altai Mountains, a mountain range in Central Asia.
The Altaic language families share numerous characteristics. The debate is over the origin of their similarities. One camp, often called the "Altaicists", views these similarities as arising from common descent from a proto-Altaic language spoken several thousand years ago. The other camp, often called the "anti-Altaicists", views these similarities as arising from areal interaction between the language groups concerned. Some linguists believe the case for either interpretation is about equally strong; they have been called the "skeptics".^[3]
Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.^[4] The expanded grouping, including Korean and Japanese, came to be known as "Macro-Altaic", leading to the designation of the smaller grouping as "Micro-Altaic" by retronymy. Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.^[5]
Micro-Altaic includes about 66 living languages,^[6] to which Macro-Altaic would add Korean, Japanese, and the Ryukyuan languages for a total of about 74. (These are estimates, depending on what is considered a language and what is considered a dialect. They do not include earlier states of languages, such as Middle Mongol or Old Japanese.)

Get over it!

5. The most ancient source of R1a1 haplotypes is provided by the people now living in northern China. It was shown (Bittles et al., 2007) that for a number of Chinese (Sino-Tibetan+Altaic) populations, such as Hui, Bonan, Dongxiang, Salars, a percentage of R1a1 haplotypes reached 18% - 32%.

For the moment, that is true. Nobody can prove this is the last evidence that shall be uncovered in the future. Furthermore, the vast majority of the ancient genetic samples are gone, this is why you need to take into accounts of history and archaeology as well...

6. The gene pool of the Turkic-speaking peoples of Siberia such as Altaians, Khakas, Shors and Soyots, living between the Altai and Lake Baikal along the Sayan mountains, are genetically closest to Amerindians. Sorry, but I can't detect any sign of IE except of this.

All of these Amerindians are C haplogroup, which further proves my point that the C haplogroup is the origin of the Turkic speaking people.

7. Turkic branch of hp P ! ... keep ignoring it...

It's a branch, not the trunk! The trunk is the C haplogroup...

[Proto-Shaman]

It's based upon Herodotus. You have nothing to dispute Herodotus.

Actually Heredotus said nothing about the relationship of the Scythian languages. And he knew Persian very well btw. What you have meant was Vasily Abaev in the 50's. Since then the majority of European sholarship accepted the Scytho-Iranic theory which is providentially weakening again since the last 24 years.

We have proof of the Indo-Europeans' culture since many thousand years ago. The Turkic's origins elude us in terms of history, and you'd better get used to it. The only thing left is genetics, and in terms of genetics all of Asia is mixed beyond reasonable recognition.

Read A. Klyosov's papers and became enlightened about dna genealogy contradicting Indo-European expansion theories.

Turkology is mere speculation prior to the time of Jesus Christ, and much later too! Can't help you if you are a rather modern people...

Turkology began as a periphery of european romanticism in the 18th c.

It is present to many people, but it is present to ALL OF THE ALTAICS. That's what matters.

Kazakhs are not the only Turkic nation. Sorry, but your argument has no foundation.

It is present to ALL OF THE IndoEuropeans. That's what matters.

So, at the end Indo-Europeans even made it to North America...

Everybody is a bastard since thousand of years ago, or else we would all be retards. We are trying to trace the original haplogroups of every language family, not those who were picked up along the way.

This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example. Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.

It is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

Get over it!

Can you read?

"This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"

Let alone macro-Altaic, not even micro-Altaic is accepted. Do you remeber Tuna's last words btw?

For the moment, that is true. Nobody can prove this is the last evidence that shall be uncovered in the future. Furthermore, the vast majority of the ancient genetic samples are gone, this is why you need to take into accounts of history and archaeology as well...

I hope so, too. I am especially waiting for the new ANE results.

All of these Amerindians are C haplogroup, which further proves my point that the C haplogroup is the origin of the Turkic speaking people.

It's a branch, not the trunk! The trunk is the C haplogroup...

Haplogroup P is almost absent in modern populations but it still peaks in central Asian Turkic nations. The trunk of Turkics is R, hell can't you get it? BTW, a Kazakh Turk (P-M45) from Kyrgyzstan still holds the record of being ancestral to nearly 2.5 billion people. C is only common among the half of Kazakhs and is just the link with Na-Dené and Tungusic tribes. That's all behind the story.

[Pennywise]

Actually Heredotus said nothing about the relationship of the Scythian languages. And he knew Persian very well btw. What you have meant was Vasily Abaev in the 50's. Since then the majority of European sholarship accepted the Scytho-Iranic theory which is providentially weakening again since the last 24 years.


Read A. Klyosov's papers and became enlightened about dna genealogy contradicting Indo-European expansion theories.


Turkology began as a periphery of european romanticism in the 18th c.


Kazakhs are not the only Turkic nation. Sorry, but your argument has no foundation.


So, at the end Indo-Europeans even made it to North America...


This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example. Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.


Can you read?

"This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"

Let alone macro-Altaic, not even micro-Altaic is accepted. Do you remeber Tuna's last words btw?


I hope so, too. I am especially waiting for the new ANE results.


Haplogroup P is almost absent in modern populations but it still peaks in central Asian Turkic nations. The trunk of Turkics is R, hell can't you get it? BTW, a Kazakh Turk (P-M45) from Kyrgyzstan still holds the record of being ancestral to nearly 2.5 billion people. C is only common among the half of Kazakhs and is just the link with Na-Dené and Tungusic tribes. That's all behind the story.

Klyosov's work is really interesting actually. His claims are hypothesis but based on many data. He claimed that r1b spreading made by turkic speakers but it was linguistically critized.

[Proto-Shaman]

Klyosov's work is really interesting actually. His claims are hypothesis but based on many data. He claimed that r1b spreading made by turkic speakers but it was linguistically critized.

His claims are very new in the european spectrum. It will be a long debate, but it was really necessary. I actually don't believe that R1b was spread only by Turkic languages into Europe. What he really meant was likely a Nostratic offshoot of 4 main linguistic branches: Basque, North Caucasian, Italo-Celtic & Turkic. Even though, in terms of genealogy he brought a lot of light into the dark.

[Pennywise]

His claims are very new in the european spectrum. It will be a long debate, but it was really necessary. I actually don't believe that R1b was spread only by Turkic languages into Europe. What he really meant was likely a Nostratic offshoot of 4 main linguistic branches: Basque, North Caucasian, Italo-Celtic & Turkic. Even though, in terms of genealogy he brought a lot of light into the dark.

Well, I don't know the reflection of his works on academia. Most of his articles in Russian, I can't read them. As far as I know, his works are not considering reliable source in wikipedia. Many of them self-published and I didn't saw anybody who reffering him.

[Proto-Shaman]

Well, I don't know the reflection of his works on academia. Most of his articles in Russian, I can't read them. As far as I know, his works are not considering reliable source in wikipedia. Many of them self-published and I didn't saw anybody who reffering him.

Yes, Wikipedia is a strange thing, usually I don't read its stuff because everbody can edit the contents. Aren't Klyosov's papers also published by SciRes?

[Proto-Shaman]

Indeed, R1a is Satem Indo-European...

If you ask me Turkic languages preserved both linguistic elements, Satem and Centum.

[Pennywise]

Yes, Wikipedia is a strange thing, usually I don't read its stuff because everbody can edit the contents. Aren't Klyosov's papers also published by SciRes?

No, not all of them I guess.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Actually Heredotus said nothing about the relationship of the Scythian languages. And he knew Persian very well btw. What you have meant was Vasily Abaev in the 50's. Since then the majority of European sholarship accepted the Scytho-Iranic theory which is providentially weakening again since the last 24 years.

Herodotus didn't say anything about the Scythian langauge, he simply preserved the words, and his knowledge of Persian is questionable at best. You cannot destroy that evidence... You never will.

Read A. Klyosov's papers and became enlightened about dna genealogy contradicting Indo-European expansion theories.

Klyosov is an idiot, and he is not the only one. Arnaiz-Villena did the same shit, and Greeks like Triandafyllidis are also doing the same shit. His claims in linguistics are lame - to say the least - since he is NOT a linguist, and his lies are laughable. Take a look at this one for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov

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Klyosov was the first person in the early 1980 USSR to use the global computer network that later became the Internet.^[3]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

THE YANKEES INVENTED THE INTERNET, NOT THE RUSSKIS!!!

SOMEBODY TELL THAT IDIOT TO STOP MAKING RIDICULOUS CLAIMS...

Turkology began as a periphery of european romanticism in the 18th c.

We are not in the 18th century, and the various Eurocentric theories - especially about race - have been thrown out of the window ever since the end of WWII. You'd better stop complaining for bias nowadays...

Kazakhs are not the only Turkic nation. Sorry, but your argument has no foundation.

Nobody said that the Kazakhs are the only Turkic nation. What I said is that the C haplogroup is present in ALL OF THE ALTAIC SPEAKING PEOPLE. Get used to it!

So, at the end Indo-Europeans even made it to North America...

We are not talking about North America, but even in North America a huge number of European colonists belong to the R1b haplogroup. Don't masturbate.

This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example.

Those R1b could have spoken Indo-European in the past, and most probably they did. Just because the Turks speak Turkish today, it doesn't mean that the people of Turkey always spoke Turkish. Try to use your brain for a while!

Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.

Nobody said that Haplogroups correlate even 1% with language families. The point was that all language families have at least a minimal amount of genetic material surviving from the earliest users of the language family. I don't know which Haplogroup relates to the Basque language, I never looked for it! It is difficult to estimate anything about the Basques, because we cannot fit them in any language family.

Can you read?
"This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"

This sentence was following the sentence Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. It means that everybody accepts that Korean and Japanese are part of the family nowadays, unlike in the past. In any case, another sentence makes clear of what the meaning is:
Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.^[5]

Let alone macro-Altaic, not even micro-Altaic is accepted. Do you remeber Tuna's last words btw?

Both Micro-Altaic and Macro-Altaic are ACCEPTED EQUALLY.

I hope so, too. I am especially waiting for the new ANE results.
Haplogroup P is almost absent in modern populations but it still peaks in central Asian Turkic nations. The trunk of Turkics is R, hell can't you get it?

The trunk of Greeks is J/E Middle Eastern/African genes, but the Greek language is INDOEUROPEAN. That's because the Greeks conquered the Neolithic farmers of Greece and imposed their language upon them. The same applies with the Turkics: They conquered other people and imposed their language upon them. Do you seriously suggest that Turkey speaks Turkish because it has a lot of R genes? Fuck, their R genes are even fewer than the Greek R genes!!! In either case, it is irrelevant: We know that the people of Turkey begun speaking Turkish only AFTER the Turks conquered Turkey...

BTW, a Kazakh Turk (P-M45) from Kyrgyzstan still holds the record of being ancestral to nearly 2.5 billion people.

This proves nothing at all. He lives in the center of the largest continent of Earth, so I wouldn't be surprised...

C is only common among the half of Kazakhs and is just the link with Na-Dené and Tungusic tribes. That's all behind the story.

C is common in ALL OF THE ALTAIC SPEAKING PEOPLE. R is not present in the Japanese or the Korean people. Even if the Japanese and Korean languages only have an "aerial" relationship with Turkish (as you suggest but nobody accepts since the 1960's) then they wouldn't only share linguistic traits, they would also share genes... and THIS IS NOT THE CASE...

[Petros Houhoulis]

His claims are very new in the european spectrum. It will be a long debate, but it was really necessary. I actually don't believe that R1b was spread only by Turkic languages into Europe. What he really meant was likely a Nostratic offshoot of 4 main linguistic branches: Basque, North Caucasian, Italo-Celtic & Turkic. Even though, in terms of genealogy he brought a lot of light into the dark.

Nostratic remains a fable for the moment. People cannot reconstruct properly Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Altaic, and some fool thinks he can trace Nostratic???