So Celts were North Europeans after all?

**Raizen** · 04-21-2020, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by SharpFork

The ethnonym Gallaecian makes it kinda obvious what they were but whether or not there were Lusitinians in the territory of Galicia is another quesiton, the 2 languages would have been related anyway so it's hard to tell.

Edit: Not sure about Bell Beaker remnant, wouldnt it have diverged significantly by the late iron age? Many even debate if it was Celtic, to me it seems unlikely for there to be such controversy if it was so old.

it is strange because it doesn't share many common celtic innovations and at the same time share some innovations with italic, to the point that some posited that it is a italic language. btw, it is interesting how hispano-celtic was the first to split from nuclear celtic, it explains why celtiberians got such a heavy dose of steppe ancestry (that would support xenophobicprussian proposition that the earliest celts were more northern)

**SharpFork** · 04-21-2020, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Raizen

it is strange because it doesn't share many common celtic innovations and at the same time share some innovations with italic, to the point that some posited that it is a italic language. btw, it is interesting how hispano-celtic was the first to split from nuclear celtic, it explains why celtiberians got such a heavy dose of steppe ancestry (that would support xenophobicprussian proposition that the earliest celts were more northern)

Yeah I know about the Italic connection, I don't believe there is any easy signal for the arrival of Lusitanians in the archeological patterns, my best bet is it would have come as some point between after Bell Beakers and before the Bronze Age collapse.

**XenophobicPrussian** · 04-21-2020, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

XenophobicPrussian model.

Code:

[1] "distance%=2.5792"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,70
Italic,15.2
ImperialRoman,8.4
Mozabite,5.6
Iberia_Central_BA,0.8

Code:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"

Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44 @4.671708           
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20 @4.799128 
Celtic:SX18_scaled @4.955601 
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851 @5.063870 
Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d @5.474916                                                    
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50 @5.537793
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111 @5.633017 
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016 @6.488556

lol that's fucking weird, did you add Dist Col or something? I ran mine with the default no Dist Col.

Portuguese average for comparison:

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 0.9206% / 0.00920594
25.6 Celtic
23.2 Iberia_Central_BA
16.2 ImperialRoman
15.8 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
11.0 Mozabite
8.2 Italic

If that was with no Dist Col, try using Southwest_BA? I'm curious.

Iberia_Southwest_BA,0.1200835,0.1497905,0.050534,-0.0134045,0.064166,-0.0133865,-0.0019975,0.0047305,0.046018,0.062416,-0.003735,0.012214,-0.022894,-0.013212,0.0059715,-0.0007955,-0.0037815,-0.003864,0.001571,0.003064,0.0146615,0.0007415,-0.00758,-0.0265095,0.002215

**Raizen** · 04-21-2020, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by SharpFork

Yeah I know about the Italic connection, I don't believe there is any easy signal for the arrival of Lusitanians in the archeological patterns, my best bet is it would have come as some point between after Bell Beakers and before the Bronze Age collapse.

they were culturally very similar to their celtic neighbours (urnfield-like culture), but you could explain this with contact/cultural exchange (and mixing of course). lets see if they turn out to be any different from their neighbours. western iberia could very well have gotten british-like admixture from the atlantic bronze age complex

**SharpFork** · 04-21-2020, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Raizen

they were culturally very similar to their celtic neighbours (urnfield-like culture), but you could explain this with contact/cultural exchange (and mixing of course). lets see if they turn out to be any different from their neighbours. western iberia could very well have gotten british-like admixture from the atlantic bronze age complex

I'm always curious if we will ever find enough inscriptions to shed the light on those languages, so many languages in the Balkans, Iberia and Italy are unknown and I wonder if France and Germany were also home to those IE dead branches(outside weak theories such as the Nordwest block)

**Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas** · 04-21-2020, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian

lol that's fucking weird, did you add Dist Col or something? I ran mine with the default no Dist Col.

Portuguese average for comparison:

If that was with no Dist Col, try using Southwest_BA? I'm curious.

I ran with nMont R standard command. Adding a penalty of 0 these are my results:

Code:

[1] "distance%=1.7354"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,62.6
ImperialRoman,13.2
Mozabite,12.4
Italic,8.6
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,1.8
Iberia_Central_BA,1.4

Still off from your Portuguese average.

**Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas** · 04-21-2020, 08:00 PM

With Soutwhest BA:

Standard:

Code:

[1] "distance%=2.6955"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,64.8
Italic,12
Iberia_Southwest_BA,10
ImperialRoman,7.8
Mozabite,4.4
Germanic,1

Pen=0

Code:

[1] "distance%=1.6727"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,55.2
ImperialRoman,14.8
Mozabite,11.6
Iberia_Southwest_BA,11.2
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,6.6
Italic,0.6

**XenophobicPrussian** · 04-21-2020, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by SharpFork

La Tene is the later culture, the spread of Hallstatt would be the one to indicate the spread of Celts into France at least, La Tene is just ramping it up and making it more violent and organized.

Do you think Celts would be 35% or what % Steppe? Maybe we are talking about technicalities, although I guess that's the entire point of the discussion.

Would this southern shift be impossible to achieve if Celts were 40% Steppe as opposed to 30%?

I don't really track ancient populations by ancestral components, rather do it by where they plot on modern PCA plots, so I would just go based on what French Occitans have and go with 36.8% steppe/Yamnaya. Remember WHG will also affect southern or northern shift, it isn't all steppe, so it's tough to say. N. French and the like seem to be 45% steppe so I would say Czechs/Slovaks would probably be scoring too much Celt if Celts were 45% steppe.

I wouldn't call this a technicality, I'd say whether or not the majority of the southern shift in certain ethnicities comes from Romans or something local/neolithic farmers has a lot of implications. May've you'll have literally no idea what I'm talking about lol, but it's kind of like, at the end of the day they're the same basal ancestries if you go far back enough, but there's a reason someone like Davidski is heavily rooting for Yamnaya to be a mix of EHG+CHG rather than EHG+Fertile Crescent farmer/Iran_N.

**XenophobicPrussian** · 04-21-2020, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

With Soutwhest BA:

Standard:

Code:

[1] "distance%=2.6955"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,64.8
Italic,12
Iberia_Southwest_BA,10
ImperialRoman,7.8
Mozabite,4.4
Germanic,1

Pen=0

Code:

[1] "distance%=1.6727"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,55.2
ImperialRoman,14.8
Mozabite,11.6
Iberia_Southwest_BA,11.2
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,6.6
Italic,0.6

Did you try with vahaduo? https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Now I'm curious if vahaduo gives different results from R.

**~~Luso~~** · 04-21-2020, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

With Soutwhest BA:

Standard:

Code:

[1] "distance%=2.6955"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,64.8
Italic,12
Iberia_Southwest_BA,10
ImperialRoman,7.8
Mozabite,4.4
Germanic,1

Pen=0

Code:

[1] "distance%=1.6727"

         Viriato_scaled

Celtic,55.2
ImperialRoman,14.8
Mozabite,11.6
Iberia_Southwest_BA,11.2
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,6.6
Italic,0.6

Do you need G25 to do this?