Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age

[CommonSense]

J2b2 L283 now confirmed as major Illyrian haplogroup:

I26726, 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 (B440-, Y37818-, Y1421-)
I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>?
I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241 (FT108123-, Y130843-, Y91418-, PH502-, Y86930-)
I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597 (Z2507-, FT29034-, FGC64029-)
I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

Comment from Eupedia forum:

I checked Y-Full, the Illyrian samples from Croatia do not belong to the same subclade that predominates among contemporary Albanians:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/

[Peterski]

I checked Y-Full, the Illyrian samples from Croatia do not belong to the same subclade that predominates among contemporary Albanians:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/

^^^
Maybe because Albanians descend from Eastern Illyrians who had slightly different subclades than Western Illyrians [Croatia] ???

[Leto]

J-L283 is completely European and expanded from the north.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/SRDV64Z.png

What about J2a? I believe in Europe it might be Romani among other things.

[J. Ketch]

Just thinking aloud. Why did the Romans single out the Silures of South Wales as being swarthy and Gallic/Iberian looking? We know that they were no more Southern shifted than other Southern Britons. It's evident that the physical difference between them and the Caledonians the Romans contrasted them with is from their Celtic influence. But were the other Southern Britons lighter because they were Belgic tribes who came in the Iron Age as attested? The Belgae could have been Germanic mixed already.

Belgic tribes:



The contention of the paper is that there was no major genetic influx in Britain in the Iron Age, but that's only based on levels of EEF not changing significantly. The Belgae might have been similarly northern as Iron Age Britons, so an influx would be undetected that way. And it was still in the folkloric memory in the 1st Century BC that the people of 'maritime' Southern Britain were relative newcomers, 'Interior' Britons considered themselves the natives. Much more likely to be referring to a major movement that occurred a few centuries before (Belgic) than the first onset of Celts into Britain, around 1000 years earlier, which apparently affected nearly all of England anyway. A major Belgae invasion would also coincide with the appearance of La Tene art/technology in Southern England.

On this point, the England Late Iron Age average shows a marked shift towards Germanic populations, an indication of Celto-Germanic Belgae in Southern England? I already noticed before one of the Hinxton Iron Age samples was very Germanic looking for a 'Celtic Briton'.

[Ayetooey]

On this point, the England Late Iron Age average shows a marked shift towards Germanic populations, an indication of Celto-Germanic Belgae in Southern England? I already noticed before one of the Hinxton Iron Age samples was very Germanic looking for a 'Celtic Briton'.

Anglo-Saxon admixture must be even lower than speculated, if there was already Germanic admixture present among celtic speakers, plus 5-10% viking admixture in the middle ages, and Germanic admix hovers around 30ish percent among English, A/S admix is probably below 20%.

[Peterski]

K36 Similitude map for Iron Age Alderney (named Channel Islands in the paper, but all samples are from Alderney):

n=3 [samples: I16430, I26628, I16505]



Some top closest single distances (when using more of regional populations):

Spoiler!

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
FR_Bretagne-Rennes
0.7524826
FR_Lower-Normandy
0.7734093
FR_Hauts-de-France
0.7964534
FR_Nord-Department
0.7987265
FR_Pas-de-Calais
0.8303295
FR_Pays-de-la-Loire
0.8326746
FR_Normandy-Manche
0.8371225
FR_Ile-de-France
0.8735153
(...)

And here are the K36 scores used (either there is a lot of noise, or this North African came with earliest Romans?):

Sample Alderney_IA

Amerindian 0
Arabian 0.20
Armenian 0
Basque 4.65
Central African 0.08
Central Euro 8.90
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 0.95
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 6.20
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 2.37
Fennoscandian 6.35
French 4.76
Iberian 21.69
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 11.48
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 1.91
North Atlantic 13.19
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 15.44
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0.25
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0.24
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0.29
West African 0
West Caucasian 0.38
West Med 0.66

[Peterski]

If we assume that those IA Alderney people were representative of ancient Armoricans, then it seems that Normandy and East Brittany (Gallo-speaking zone, around Rennes) are more similar to ancient Armoricans, than people from West Brittany. Western Brittany (actual Breton-speaking areas) can probably be modeled as a mix of IA Alderney + IA Britain.

What modern Bretons score:

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 0.8513% / 0.00851279
69.0 England_IA
10.4 Austria_IA
10.2 Scotland_IA
6.6 Croatia_IA
3.4 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
0.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 0.8544% / 0.00854352 | ADC: 0.25x RC
79.0 England_IA
8.0 Austria_IA
7.0 Croatia_IA
6.0 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric

80% Iron Age British! And no Channel Island or France IA. Make of it what you will.

^^^
This G25 average for Channel Islands probably includes a low resolution sample I26629.

This sample should be removed and only the 3 decent quality samples should be used:

I16430, I26628, I16505

Also I think that you might get good fits if you model Bretons as a mix of Channel Islands IA + British IA.

[J. Ketch]

Anglo-Saxon admixture must be even lower than speculated, if there was already Germanic admixture present among celtic speakers, plus 5-10% viking admixture in the middle ages, and Germanic admix hovers around 30ish percent among English, A/S admix is probably below 20%.

I think you underestimate the Anglo-Saxon/Germanic influence. In the Schiffels study they compared Anglo-Saxons to late Iron Age British (who look potentially Germanic mixed to me), where they came up with the figure of 38% 'Anglo-Saxon' for Eastern English, with a spread of 25-50%, and 30% even for Scotland and Wales. In the Viking study from last year the ancient Scandinavian-like input in England was estimated as 42%, with 37% being ancient-Danish like.

But who knows whether there was already Germanic admix in England in the Iron Age, I'm just speculating based on some things.

[Peterski]

Just thinking aloud. Why did the Romans single out the Silures of South Wales as being swarthy and Gallic/Iberian looking?

The Gauls were descriibed by the Romans as northern-looking, so writing "Gallic/Iberian", as if they were equivalents, makes no sense. Check the K36 of Channel Islands Iron Age population (which is probably a good proxy for Armoricans). They were pretty much identical as modern North French, except for Breton-speaking part of Bretagne (remember that people in Eastern Bretagne speak Gallo, and they never spoke Breton in this part - around Rennes).

You were probably right that IA Britain is necessary to model Bretons, but it only applies to West Bretagne (Breton-speaking part).

[Peterski]

But who knows whether there was already Germanic admix in England in the Iron Age, I'm just speculating based on some things.

Well, what you called a "shift of England (between EIA and LIA) towards Germanics" also looks like a "shift of England (between EIA and LIA) towards Scotland_IA" to me. So this admixture could be from northern parts of Britain, rather than from areas across the North Sea. Another issue - you should check the regional distribution of England_EIA, England_MIA and England_LIA samples. Because for example if England_EIA samples are mainly from South England; England_MIA samples mainly from English Midlands; and England_LIA mainly from Northern England - then this observed "shift" is not a shift at all, but just a function of geography (because already in the Early Iron Age there was more of EEF admixture in the south of Britain than in the north).

The next thing:

What about uniparentals? If you are unsure about something based on auDNA, maybe a good idea is to check haplogroups?

Maciamo calculated haplogroup statistics and posted on his Eupedia Forum, I'm quoting him:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post636856

Early Iron Age Britain (n=14)

I2a2-M223>Y3259>Y6098>PF692
R1b-P297
R1b-M269
R1b-L52
R1b-U106>S264
R1b-P312
R1b-P312
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251>A11676
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23
R1b-P312>DF27>Z195>Z29704>S11475

Middle & Late Iron Age Britain (n=146)

F
F
F
F
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>BY27899
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>S23438
G2a-L497>Z1815>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>Z16775
I1
I2a1a-M26>L160
I2a1a-M26>L160>Z105
I2a2a-M223>Y3259>Y6098
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195>Y3684
I2a2a-M223>Z284>L1195>Y3684
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269
R1b-M269>PF7562>Y83965
R1b-L52
R1b-L52
R1b-L52
R1b-L52>L151
R1b-L52>L151
R1b-L52>L151>S1200
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312
R1b-L52>L151>P312>S461
R1b-L52>L151>P312>Z30597
R1b-L52>L151>P312>Z30597
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>A1101
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>CTS1751>FGC49766
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF1
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF1>S5668
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>BY11117
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>DF25>DF5
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>DF25>Y12651
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>Y2890
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>BY23924
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>S1088
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>S1088
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>S7958>BY33481
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>FGC5494>Y31855
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>S1026>BY173541
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>S1026>Z16887
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>S1051>FGC19428
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Y14049>BY9003
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251>Y11273
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2185
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2185>Z2186
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>A14
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>BY13089
R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>Z16436
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63
R1b-P312>L21>DF63>CTS6919
R1b-P312>L21>DF63>FGC36421
R1b-P312>L238>Z2245
R1b-P312>DF27
R1b-P312>DF27>FT318890>Y3267
R1b-P312>DF27>Y14529
R1b-P312>DF27>Y30754
R1b-P312>DF27>Y30754>Y85515
R1b-P312>DF27>Z195>Z262
R1b-P312>DF27>Z225>Y89302
R1b-P312>DF27>Z2572
R1b-P312>U152>L2
R1b-P312>U152>L2
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Y3961>Y17997
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Z49>Z142>S7402
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Z49>Z142>S7402>FGC12384
R1b-P312>U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z51>Z57>Z53

Haplogroup frequency:

R1b = 88.3% (including 58.2% of L21, 6.8% of M269, 5.5% of DF27, 4.1% of L2 and 0% of U106)
G2a-L497 = 3.4%
I2a2a-M223 = 3.4%
F = 2.7%
I2a1a-M26 = 1.4%
I1 = 0.7%

=====

In other words, ABSOLUTE LACK of Germanic Y-DNA haplogroups in Iron Age Britain, except for maybe one singleton I1.

What percentage of English males today carry Germanic Y-DNA ??? I don't remember exactly, but surely double-digits.

And in IA England it was no more than 1% (if that singleton I1 is real - and not misdated or a wrongly assigned haplo).

To sum up, there was no male-mediated Germanic admixture in Iron Age England. Maybe female-mediated.

Maybe Britons were buying blond-haired Germanic slave girls and got Germanic admixture - if you want to believe this.