Gedmatch calculators on Vahaduo

[Lucas]

Please update these (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE/page220)then. I don't think that anyone has any objections about them.

Also, do you know what happened to the gradient in the "Distance" tab? Now everything is coloured blue, so it's not working as intended.

You can change default values for gradient from 0.2 to 25. But I've just changed.

[Leto]

Luke, can you please finally delete Yemen Jews and Ethiopian Jews from Dodecad K12b? Those are inaccurate legacy references that frequently pop up when they're not needed. That's very annoying. Thank you.

[Abriekman]

K13 Results , converted AncestryDNA kit do 23andme v3 format

deleted some Slavic populations and Pomak because of overfitting

Distance: 298.5900% / 2.98590047
Target: Abriekman | ADC: 0.5x RC
50.8 Ukrainian_Belgorod
26.6 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
14.5 Moldova_Centre
4.6 Adygei
3.5 Ukrainian_Lviv

Distance: 262.1985% / 2.62198535
Target: Abriekman | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.0 Ukrainian_Belgorod
18.0 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
15.3 Ukrainian_Lviv
11.9 Turk_Dobrich
6.3 Erzya
3.5 Turk_Meskhetian

Distance: 235.1753% / 2.35175266
Target: Abriekman
68.8 Ukrainian_Belgorod
17.0 Albanian_central_Albania
6.1 Erzya
5.0 Ukrainian_Lviv
1.4 Moroccan
0.7 Turk_Meskhetian
0.6 Dusadh
0.4 Papuan

[paradox]

You can change default values for gradient from 0.2 to 25. But I've just changed.Hi, could you also fix the decimal placement? It's giving large distances.

[Lucas]

Hi, could you also fix the decimal placement? It's giving large distances.

Yes. Sorry I updated the core of Vahaduo and forgot about it.

[J. Ketch]

OK Lucas, if you don't wish to add the smaller English/Dutch regions (fair enough as they're not really necessary), could you just add/update these, and remove Ulster British/SW English, and that will suffice for these countries.

K13


English_Midlands,49.62,23.45,13.76,5.66,4.13,0.58, 0.96,0.20,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.25,0.21
English_Southwest,50.26,23.06,14.23,5.30,3.67,0.76 ,1.13,0.03,0.20,0.54,0.45,0.17,0.13
Irish,52.54,23.16,12.46,6.75,1.37,0.52,1.32,0.16,0 .21,0.85,0.30,0.16,0.13
Irish_Connacht,52.65,23.42,12.04,7.09,1.07,0.21,1. 59,0.10,0.28,0.90,0.21,0.22,0.10
Irish_Leinster,51.84,23.04,12.80,6.68,1.97,0.62,1. 09,0.31,0.09,0.74,0.39,0.19,0.16
Irish_Munster,52.87,22.83,12.42,6.79,1.52,0.35,1.3 4,0.19,0.28,0.78,0.23,0.16,0.16
Irish_Ulster,53.13,22.47,12.65,6.9,0.87,0.61,1.49, 0.10,0.36,0.84,0.32,0.05,0.14

K15


English_Midlands,36.27,27.78,10.09,8.73,9.54,3.87, 1.44,0.48,0.57,0.06,0.06,0.26,0.24,0.21,0.15
English_Southwest,35.79,29.10,9.64,8.78,10.15,3.15 ,1.13,0.57,0.83,0.01,0.04,0.27,0.27,0.13,0.09
Irish,36.87,30.46,9.78,8.67,7.52,4.04,0.36,0.34,0. 88,0.08,0.09,0.54,0.14,0.08,0.07
Irish_Connacht,37.58,30.41,9.11,9.30,7.27,3.87,0.0 7,0.09,1.09,0.04,0.11,0.67,0.13,0.11,0.07
Irish_Leinster,36.65,30.11,9.58,8.92,7.98,4.19,0.2 8,0.45,0.76,0.18,0.00,0.41,0.20,0.11,0.11
Irish_Munster,37.13,30.17,9.77,8.40,7.68,4.48,0.18 ,0.17,0.91,0.07,0.14,0.50,0.14,0.08,0.10
Irish_Ulster,36.62,30.93,9.31,8.62,7.70,4.34,0.04, 0.30,1.12,0.06,0.13,0.56,0.14,0.03,0.04

[Lucas]

OK Lucas, if you don't wish to add the smaller English/Dutch regions (fair enough as they're not really necessary), could you just add/update these, and remove Ulster British/SW English, and that will suffice for these countries.

K13


English_Midlands,49.62,23.45,13.76,5.66,4.13,0.58, 0.96,0.20,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.25,0.21
English_Southwest,50.26,23.06,14.23,5.30,3.67,0.76 ,1.13,0.03,0.20,0.54,0.45,0.17,0.13
Irish,52.54,23.16,12.46,6.75,1.37,0.52,1.32,0.16,0 .21,0.85,0.30,0.16,0.13
Irish_Connacht,52.65,23.42,12.04,7.09,1.07,0.21,1. 59,0.10,0.28,0.90,0.21,0.22,0.10
Irish_Leinster,51.84,23.04,12.80,6.68,1.97,0.62,1. 09,0.31,0.09,0.74,0.39,0.19,0.16
Irish_Munster,52.87,22.83,12.42,6.79,1.52,0.35,1.3 4,0.19,0.28,0.78,0.23,0.16,0.16
Irish_Ulster,53.13,22.47,12.65,6.9,0.87,0.61,1.49, 0.10,0.36,0.84,0.32,0.05,0.14

K15


English_Midlands,36.27,27.78,10.09,8.73,9.54,3.87, 1.44,0.48,0.57,0.06,0.06,0.26,0.24,0.21,0.15
English_Southwest,35.79,29.10,9.64,8.78,10.15,3.15 ,1.13,0.57,0.83,0.01,0.04,0.27,0.27,0.13,0.09
Irish,36.87,30.46,9.78,8.67,7.52,4.04,0.36,0.34,0. 88,0.08,0.09,0.54,0.14,0.08,0.07
Irish_Connacht,37.58,30.41,9.11,9.30,7.27,3.87,0.0 7,0.09,1.09,0.04,0.11,0.67,0.13,0.11,0.07
Irish_Leinster,36.65,30.11,9.58,8.92,7.98,4.19,0.2 8,0.45,0.76,0.18,0.00,0.41,0.20,0.11,0.11
Irish_Munster,37.13,30.17,9.77,8.40,7.68,4.48,0.18 ,0.17,0.91,0.07,0.14,0.50,0.14,0.08,0.10
Irish_Ulster,36.62,30.93,9.31,8.62,7.70,4.34,0.04, 0.30,1.12,0.06,0.13,0.56,0.14,0.03,0.04

But you also posted averages for North, Central, South Dutch and I added I think it or no?

[J. Ketch]

But you also posted averages for North, Central, South Dutch and I added I think it or no?
Yes you added those, but I also posted averages for smaller regions of the Netherlands/England some pages ago, but honestly they're not necessary, so I'm not bothered.

[J. Ketch]

Update for Dodecad K12b


English_North,9.01,0.25,0.27,0.03,38.47,44.34,0.25 ,0.02,0.65,0.10,6.54,0.02
English_South,9.09,0.26,0.41,0.14,38.28,43.01,0.24 ,0.07,0.94,0.04,7.44,0.02
Irish,10.69,0.23,0.05,0.04,39.30,44.41,0.22,0.02,0 .10,0.03,4.84,0.01
Scottish,10.25,0.19,0.21,0.16,38.53,44.21,0.23,0.0 1,0.40,0.03,5.73,0


English_North - 26
English_South - 35
Irish - 30
Scottish - 20

Distance to: English_North
1.11897274 English_mixed
1.70164626 English_South
1.79117280 Mixed_NW_Euro
2.49244860 Irish
2.57522815 Irish
3.29001520 Dutch
3.42112555 Dutch_Central
4.04555311 Dutch_North
4.48494147 Icelandic
5.51924814 Dutch_South
8.09982716 German
8.16905747 Swedish
9.58871211 French2
10.23483757 French
10.53464760 Bavarian_German
14.37151349 Slovenian
15.54159258 Slovak
16.15114237 Sorb_Lusatia
16.47149963 Hungarians
17.83157312 Croat

Distance to: English_South
0.67660919 English_mixed
1.84219977 English_North
2.36803716 Mixed_NW_Euro
3.29051668 Dutch
3.54928162 Irish
3.63469393 Dutch_Central
3.69617370 Irish
4.23837233 Dutch_South
5.03749938 Dutch_North
5.87048550 Icelandic
8.49688767 German
8.55565895 French2
9.11246948 Bavarian_German
9.20701906 French
9.40572166 Swedish
13.86794505 Slovenian
15.59183761 Slovak
16.20585080 Hungarians
16.63297628 Sorb_Lusatia
17.01635568 Italy_Aosta_Valley

Distance to: Irish
0.31638584 Irish
1.81785588 Mixed_NW_Euro
2.81732142 English_North
3.19740520 English_mixed
3.72675462 English_South
4.69557238 Dutch_North
4.71578201 Icelandic
5.42950274 Dutch
5.54221977 Dutch_Central
7.73586453 Dutch_South
8.87980856 Swedish
9.91194734 German
10.04644713 French2
10.71058355 French
12.66006714 Bavarian_German
16.67321505 Slovenian
17.46420911 Slovak
17.70507554 Sorb_Lusatia
18.66554580 Hungarians
19.38065530 PL_Warmia-Masuria

Distance to: Scottish
0.85211502 Mixed_NW_Euro
1.19503138 Irish
1.33214113 Irish
1.70076453 English_North
2.11279436 English_mixed
2.56304506 English_South
4.05900234 Dutch_North
4.22776537 Dutch
4.38336629 Dutch_Central
4.41389850 Icelandic
6.51482156 Dutch_South
8.48864536 Swedish
8.89934829 German
9.85646996 French2
10.53283912 French
11.47912018 Bavarian_German
15.41069758 Slovenian
16.37447098 Slovak
16.83302706 Sorb_Lusatia
17.46734382 Hungarians

Mixed NW Euro can be removed now IMO, and the duplicate old Irish averages.

[Leto]

I don't like the two French references from Dodecad, they are definitely unrepresentative of most French people. Someone should replace them with something more accurate.

Also what was the sample size for Bavarian_German? 10 or less?

[Leto]

@Lucas please remove Kyrgyz_Bishkek from Dodecad, it's crap and I don't know who added it. One Kyrgyz would suffice.

[Lucas]

@Lucas please remove Kyrgyz_Bishkek from Dodecad, it's crap and I don't know who added it. One Kyrgyz would suffice.

OK:)

[Lucas]

@Lucas please remove Kyrgyz_Bishkek from Dodecad, it's crap and I don't know who added it. One Kyrgyz would suffice.

OK:)

[Leto]

Nepali averages for Dodecad K12b


Kiranti_Rai = 3 kits
Gurung = 3 kits
Newar_Shrestha = 5kits
Khas_Kshatriya = 8kits
Khas_Brahmin = 34 kits (1 duplicate removed)



Nepali_Kirant_Rai,1.06,9.20,0.00,18.58,0.00,0.06,7 .66,0.02,0.00,62.67,0.22,0.54
Nepali_Gurung,3.76,9.38,0.08,16.33,0.05,0.25,13.91 ,0.15,0.00,55.76,0.10,0.22
Nepali_Newar_Shrestha,17.21,5.85,0.25,9.54,0.79,3. 12,29.01,0.27,0.00,32.71,1.21,0.05
Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya,26.86,3.64,0.06,5.07,1.07,8. 55,33.68,0.09,0.58,16.62,3.79,0.01
Nepali_Khas_Brahmin,33.65,1.83,0.09,1.39,2.44,13.7 6,35.33,0.06,0.54,4.38,6.47,0.05

[vbnetkhio]

most of the current Serb regional averages have way too little samples, less than 10. And they are all very similar to each other, so they can easily overflood one's oracles.
I merged regions that are identical or very similar into these 4 simplified averages:



Serb_north,25.11,30.70,16.57,9.04,14.65,1.53,0.53, 0.32,0.57,0.43,0.43,0.06,0.04
Serb_central,25.13,29.35,17.05,8.71,15.72,1.62,0.5 7,0.26,0.66,0.50,0.28,0.10,0.05
Serb_south,23.36,27.16,17.57,9.33,18.39,1.96,0.44, 0.18,0.84,0.35,0.28,0.00,0.15
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06

Serb,24.71,29.16,17.05,9.00,16.03,1.69,0.51,0.26,0 .67,0.44,0.33,0.07,0.07


the approximate geographic distribution of these averages:
https://i.imgur.com/zwZK2xE.png

i think these should replace the current averages, if everybody agrees. but then the averages for other ethnicities should be simplified too.

[Jana]

most of the current Serb regional averages have way too little samples, less than 10. And they are all very similar to each other, so they can easily overflood one's oracles.
I merged regions that are identical or very similar into these 4 simplified averages:



Serb_north,25.11,30.70,16.57,9.04,14.65,1.53,0.53, 0.32,0.57,0.43,0.43,0.06,0.04
Serb_central,25.13,29.35,17.05,8.71,15.72,1.62,0.5 7,0.26,0.66,0.50,0.28,0.10,0.05
Serb_south,23.36,27.16,17.57,9.33,18.39,1.96,0.44, 0.18,0.84,0.35,0.28,0.00,0.15
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06

Serb,24.71,29.16,17.05,9.00,16.03,1.69,0.51,0.26,0 .67,0.44,0.33,0.07,0.07


the approximate geographic distribution of these averages:
https://i.imgur.com/zwZK2xE.png

i think these should replace the current averages, if everybody agrees. but then the averages for other ethnicities should be simplified too.

Excellent idea, I want to do same for Croatian averages but am unable to do so myself.

My idea is as following:

Southern (Dalmatia, Lika, all of BiH)
North and Central (Zagorje, central)
Eastern (Slavonia)
Western (Istria and Primorje, Gorski kotar)

+ one general average

If you wish, you can do them. I posted few results recently in south Slav (Commonsense did too) thread that need to be added as well (from page 46 to the end)

[Lucas]

most of the current Serb regional averages have way too little samples, less than 10. And they are all very similar to each other, so they can easily overflood one's oracles.
I merged regions that are identical or very similar into these 4 simplified averages:



Serb_north,25.11,30.70,16.57,9.04,14.65,1.53,0.53, 0.32,0.57,0.43,0.43,0.06,0.04
Serb_central,25.13,29.35,17.05,8.71,15.72,1.62,0.5 7,0.26,0.66,0.50,0.28,0.10,0.05
Serb_south,23.36,27.16,17.57,9.33,18.39,1.96,0.44, 0.18,0.84,0.35,0.28,0.00,0.15
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06

Serb,24.71,29.16,17.05,9.00,16.03,1.69,0.51,0.26,0 .67,0.44,0.33,0.07,0.07


the approximate geographic distribution of these averages:
https://i.imgur.com/zwZK2xE.png

i think these should replace the current averages, if everybody agrees. but then the averages for other ethnicities should be simplified too.


If they exist Romanian/Vlach samples form NE Serbia?

[Lucas]

most of the current Serb regional averages have way too little samples, less than 10. And they are all very similar to each other, so they can easily overflood one's oracles.
I merged regions that are identical or very similar into these 4 simplified averages:



Serb_north,25.11,30.70,16.57,9.04,14.65,1.53,0.53, 0.32,0.57,0.43,0.43,0.06,0.04
Serb_central,25.13,29.35,17.05,8.71,15.72,1.62,0.5 7,0.26,0.66,0.50,0.28,0.10,0.05
Serb_south,23.36,27.16,17.57,9.33,18.39,1.96,0.44, 0.18,0.84,0.35,0.28,0.00,0.15
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06

Serb,24.71,29.16,17.05,9.00,16.03,1.69,0.51,0.26,0 .67,0.44,0.33,0.07,0.07


the approximate geographic distribution of these averages:
https://i.imgur.com/zwZK2xE.png

i think these should replace the current averages, if everybody agrees. but then the averages for other ethnicities should be simplified too.

Add it instead of what is now or leave old regional too?

[Leto]

Lukasz, please finish the latest Creoda update :)

[Dušan]

most of the current Serb regional averages have way too little samples, less than 10. And they are all very similar to each other, so they can easily overflood one's oracles.
I merged regions that are identical or very similar into these 4 simplified averages:



Serb_north,25.11,30.70,16.57,9.04,14.65,1.53,0.53, 0.32,0.57,0.43,0.43,0.06,0.04
Serb_central,25.13,29.35,17.05,8.71,15.72,1.62,0.5 7,0.26,0.66,0.50,0.28,0.10,0.05
Serb_south,23.36,27.16,17.57,9.33,18.39,1.96,0.44, 0.18,0.84,0.35,0.28,0.00,0.15
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06

Serb,24.71,29.16,17.05,9.00,16.03,1.69,0.51,0.26,0 .67,0.44,0.33,0.07,0.07


the approximate geographic distribution of these averages:
https://i.imgur.com/zwZK2xE.png

i think these should replace the current averages, if everybody agrees. but then the averages for other ethnicities should be simplified too.

Ok, but why is general Serb average changed?

This one seems correct

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05

[vbnetkhio]

Excellent idea, I want to do same for Croatian averages but am unable to do so myself.

My idea is as following:

Southern (Dalmatia, Lika, all of BiH)
North and Central (Zagorje, central)
Eastern (Slavonia)
Western (Istria and Primorje, Gorski kotar)

+ one general average

If you wish, you can do them. I posted few results recently in south Slav (Commonsense did too) thread that need to be added as well.

i would put Dalmatia, Herzegovina and West Bosnia into "southern", and Lika, proper Bosnia, Istria and Slavonia into "central".

https://i.imgur.com/iBgYLR3.png

the Slavonian average is weird, you can see it's a little bit outlying from the rest. i don't think it's the true Slavonian Croat average. 3 out of 7 samples aren't purely from Slavonia, and among the other 4 one is super northern shifted and one is super southern.

but you decide.

[Jana]

i would put Dalmatia, Herzegovina and West Bosnia into "southern", and Lika, proper Bosnia, Istria and Slavonia into "central".

https://i.imgur.com/iBgYLR3.png

the Slavonian average is weird, you can see it's a little bit outlying from the rest. i don't think it's the true Slavonian Croat average. 3 out of 7 samples aren't purely from Slavonia, and among the other 4 one is super northern shifted and one is super southern.

but you decide.

Makes sense. So if you do them big thanks. Person who has 70 Slavonian samples unfortunately never sent them to Hrvoje, so if you divide them like that it's cool.
I'm just worried labels would confuse people.

I mean, nobody would guess Slavonia and Istria are in centre. Still, go ahead, based on PCA your division makes most sense.

[vbnetkhio]

Ok, but why is general Serb average changed?

This one seems correct

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05

I made some small changes. I merged East Serbia into the Central average, and not with Southern as before, because i noticed based on the current samples they don't seem very south shifted or Romanian admixed at all.
I also included mixed samples now (e.g. north Bosnia+Vojvodina mixed people in the northern average)

do you think the old one had better med/west asian proportions?

[vbnetkhio]

If they exist Romanian/Vlach samples form NE Serbia?

these ones:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?308002-What-is-our-understanding-regarding-the-genetics-of-eastern-Serbia&p=6364354&viewfull=1#post6364354
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?314222-Vlach-from-East-Serbia

they are not 100% confirmed though.

[Ion Basescul]

Please update the following for K13. Don't delete the rest, only duplicates.



Moldova_North,23.76,34.32,14.70,9.76,12.20,1.53,0. 33,0.50,1.73,0.48,0.32,0.04,0.32
Moldova_average,23.08,30.46,15.56,10.11,14.74,1.91 ,0.82,0.58,1.43,0.52,0.37,0.10,0.22

Romania_Moldavia_North,24.59,30.31,15.10,9.37,14.8 1,1.70,0.82,0.61,1.30,1,0,0,0
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.07,26.78,16.97,9.83,16.6 9,2.04,0.67,0.54,1.08,0.67,0.39,0.10,0.16
Romania_Wallachia,22.35,24.81,17.64,11.14,18.53,2. 09,0.75,0.65,0.96,0.52,0.35,0.11,0.09
Romania_Muntenia,21.91,24.66,17.54,11.35,18.87,2.1 9,0.72,0.55,1.03,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.10
Romania_Oltenia,23.52,25.05,17.97,10.73,17.82,1.79 ,0.70,0.79,0.69,0.38,0.36,0.10,0.09
Romania_Dobruja,22.11,24.93,17.64,11.00,18.49,2.23 ,0.71,0.87,1.25,0.37,0.28,0.07,0.06
Romania_Transylvania,24.31,25.97,17.43,10.13,16.98 ,1.84,0.65,0.54,1.04,0.59,0.35,0.07,0.10
Romania_Maramures,24.38,28.43,16.90,9.19,15.65,2.0 6,1.06,0.73,0.75,0.29,0.49,0.05,0.00
Romania_Crisana,25.58,26.36,17.69,9.50,16.32,1.25, 0.82,0.62,0.85,0.59,0.25,0.12,0.06
Romania_Banat,22.75,25.65,17.78,10.71,17.71,2.06,0 .84,0.55,1.21,0.40,0.21,0.07,0.09


The average for Moldova is weighted according to population compared to the old one (Moldova_average,23.50,29.88,15.61,9.93,15.16,1.86 ,0.85,0.62,1.32,0.53,0.41,0.14,0.20)

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<tbody>
Weight in country
Region


27.00%
North


52.90%
Centre


20.00%
South

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

Reminder to update the above

[Dušan]

I made some small changes. I merged East Serbia into the Central average, and not with Southern as before, because i noticed based on the current samples they don't seem very south shifted or Romanian admixed at all.
I also included mixed samples now (e.g. north Bosnia+Vojvodina mixed people in the northern average)

do you think the old one had better med/west asian proportions?

Yes, I think that this general average is better


Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05


than this new one

Serb,24.71,29.16,17.05,9.00,16.03,1.69,0.51,0.26,0 .67,0.44,0.33,0.07,0.07

In second, east Med and Red Sea components are a bit exaggerated.

[vbnetkhio]

Makes sense. So if you do them big thanks. Person who has 70 Slavonian samples unfortunately never sent them to Hrvoje, so if you divide them like that it's cool.


and yet she uses vahaduo :rolleyes:
doesn't she realize the how much she would improve the tool if she donated her results?



I'm just worried labels would confuse people.

I mean, nobody would guess Slavonia and Istria are in centre. Still, go ahead, based on PCA your division makes most sense.

on a second look, maybe Bosnia proper isn't plotting correctly because of a small sample (12). and Dalmatia looks closer to Istria and Lika than to Herzegovina and Tropolje.

so we could use Littoral (Dalmatia+Lika+Istria), North(or Central? - Northwest+Central+Kotar), East(Slavonia), and Bosnian(Bosnian+Herzegovinian)

[Jana]

and yet she uses vahaduo :rolleyes:
doesn't she realize the how much she would improve the tool if she donated her results?



on a second look, maybe Bosnia proper isn't plotting correctly because of a small sample (12). and Dalmatia looks closer to Istria and Lika than to Herzegovina and Tropolje.

so we could use Littoral (Dalmatia+Lika+Istria), North(or Central? - Northwest+Central+Kotar), East(Slavonia), and Bosnian(Bosnian+Herzegovinian)

Maybe she wanted to send them, but saw that copying values of 70 samples and running them on K13 was too much work? Who knows, maybe she still sends them.

Here are last individual samples that should be added if you haven't already (from s.slavic thread)


Croat_Dalmatia,29.89,31.61,18.81,8.21,9.33,0,0,1.1 1,1.03,0,0,0,0
Croat_Dalmatia,24.71,28.52,17.72,11.72,15.37,0.09, 0,0.5 5,0.77,0.24,0.21,0,0.07
Croat_Zagorje,32.02,36.28,12.94,2.90,12.11,1.28,0, 0,2.0 4,0,0.38,0,0
Croat_Herzegovina,25.68,31.98,18.06,7.46,12.86,1.4 ,0.91,0.07,1.51,0.06,0,0,0
Croat_Kvarner,33.52,33.8,11.86,6.4,11.11,0.96,0,0, 0.11,1.35,0.19,0,0.69

What about this divison?

Panonnia (Zagorje+Central+Slavonia+Gorski kotar) - yeah Gorski kotar isn't technically Panonnia but population is very Central European in origin, and culturally too
Dinaric Alps (Lika+Bosnia proper+west Bosnia+Herzegovina) - Lika is mostly Bunjevac origin, same culture like BiH and topography, should be with them IMO
Adriatic (Istria+Kvarner+Dalmatia)
+ one general average for all

This division would be nice I think.

[vbnetkhio]

Maybe she wanted to send them, but saw that copying values of 70 samples and running them on K13 was too much work? Who knows, maybe she still sends them.


well the kit numbers would be enough. yes, let's hope she shares them one day.



Here are last individual samples that should be added if you haven't already (from s.slavic thread)


Croat_Dalmatia,29.89,31.61,18.81,8.21,9.33,0,0,1.1 1,1.03,0,0,0,0
Croat_Dalmatia,24.71,28.52,17.72,11.72,15.37,0.09, 0,0.5 5,0.77,0.24,0.21,0,0.07
Croat_Zagorje,32.02,36.28,12.94,2.90,12.11,1.28,0, 0,2.0 4,0,0.38,0,0
Croat_Herzegovina,25.68,31.98,18.06,7.46,12.86,1.4 ,0.91,0.07,1.51,0.06,0,0,0
Croat_Kvarner,33.52,33.8,11.86,6.4,11.11,0.96,0,0, 0.11,1.35,0.19,0,0.69

What about this divison?

Panonnia (Zagorje+Central+Slavonia+Gorski kotar) - yeah Gorski kotar isn't technically Panonnia but population is very Central European in origin, and culturally too
Dinaric Alps (Lika+Bosnia proper+west Bosnia+Herzegovina) - Lika is mostly Bunjevac origin, same culture like BiH and topography, should be with them IMO
Adriatic (Istria+Kvarner+Dalmatia)
+ one general average for all

This division would be nice I think.

i already made these, is it ok?


Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13.91,1.38,0.59 ,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_North,31.25,33.42,14.32,7.25,9.92,1.21,0.63, 0.31,0.55,0.56,0.33,0.12,0.13

Croat,28.36,33.20,14.93,7.76,11.78,1.44,0.51,0.26, 0.57,0.52,0.44,0.10,0.14


the new samples are included.

[Jana]

well the kit numbers would be enough. yes, let's hope she shares them one day.



i already made these, is it ok?


Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13.91,1.38,0.59 ,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_North,31.25,33.42,14.32,7.25,9.92,1.21,0.63, 0.31,0.55,0.56,0.33,0.12,0.13

Croat,28.36,33.20,14.93,7.76,11.78,1.44,0.51,0.26, 0.57,0.52,0.44,0.10,0.14


the new samples are included.

Thank you! Lucas can add them.

[vbnetkhio]

Add it instead of what is now or leave old regional too?

delete all and add these:


Serb_north,25.11,30.70,16.57,9.04,14.65,1.53,0.53, 0.32,0.57,0.43,0.43,0.06,0.04
Serb_central,25.13,29.35,17.05,8.71,15.72,1.62,0.5 7,0.26,0.66,0.50,0.28,0.10,0.05
Serb_south,23.36,27.16,17.57,9.33,18.39,1.96,0.44, 0.18,0.84,0.35,0.28,0.00,0.15
Montenegrin,24.61,25.37,18.18,10.20,17.36,2.35,0.1 3,0.25,0.75,0.43,0.27,0.02,0.06

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05

[Thracian]

I also grouped Balkan Turkish samples. I could have made smaller one like Turk_Greece, Turk_Bulgaria etc... but I think the difference between regions in the same country is significant.


Turk_Western_Thrace,18.13666667,18.07,14.46333333, 14.55333333,23.87,3.053333333,0.56,1.393333333,4.1 93333333,0.673333333,0.356666667,0.043333333,0.316 666667
Turk_Eastern_Macedonia,19.61,20.485,16.035,15.235, 20.385,1.56,0.81,1.94,1.98,0.27,0.235,0.095,0.23
Turk_Central_Macedonia,19.29,19.58,17.35,12.55,26. 1,1.97,0,0.51,1.38,0.94,0,0,0.32
Turk_Bulgaria_East,19.03,11.49,14.52,19.18,23.94,3 .15,1.32,2.12,4.28,0.44,0,0.16,0.37
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86333333,21.44333333,13 .87666667,13.28666667,20.28333333,2.653333333,2.03 6666667,2.72,1.99,0.863333333,0.296666667,0.196666 667,0.493333333
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.69666667,18.65666667,15.3 9,15.38333333,18.53666667,2.72,2.336666667,1.65333 3333,3.256666667,0.893333333,0.196666667,0.17,0.11
Turk_Bulgaria_South,17.144,18.302,14.608,17.27,18. 11,3.092,0.878,3.074,5.95,0.83,0.282,0.296,0.172
Turk_Eastern_Thrace,13.92,14.66,16.81,19.56,20.22, 2.35,3.04,3.03,5.28,0.53,0.53,0.07,0

[Lucas]

Thank you! Lucas can add them.

For North some update:) Wife of my friend I have trustful info of her ancestry.

She has all 4 grandparents kajkavian Croats
So, her father from is from Zlatar, Krapinsko/zagorska županija
Her mother is half from Cestica, on border with Slovenia and half from mursko središče on border with Slovenija and Hungary


Population
North_Atlantic 32.54 Pct
Baltic 33.63 Pct
West_Med 14.34 Pct
West_Asian 6.01 Pct
East_Med 9.51 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.55 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.54 Pct
Oceanian 1.3 Pct
Northeast_African 0.58 Pct
Sub-Saharan -


# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 3.55
2 East_German 5.78
3 Croatian 5.83
4 Austrian 6.17
5 Moldavian 8.24
6 South_Polish 9.03
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.96
8 Serbian 10.09
9 Ukrainian 10.74
10 Polish 12.47
11 West_German 13.7
12 Romanian 14.28
13 North_Swedish 14.88
14 Southwest_Russian 14.97
15 South_Dutch 15
16 North_German 15.23
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.39
18 Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.42
19 Russian_Smolensk 15.64
20 Estonian_Polish 16.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.8% Croatian + 22.2% Southeast_English @ 2.48
2 60.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 39.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.69
3 62.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.7
4 61.3% Southwest_Russian + 38.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.75
5 78.9% Croatian + 21.1% Orcadian @ 2.76
6 80.1% Croatian + 19.9% Southwest_English @ 2.81
7 77.8% Croatian + 22.2% North_Dutch @ 2.85
8 80.7% Croatian + 19.3% West_Scottish @ 2.89
9 74.9% South_Polish + 25.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.9
10 77.6% Croatian + 22.4% Danish @ 2.91
11 73.1% South_Polish + 26.9% Portuguese @ 2.91
12 74.8% South_Polish + 25.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.92
13 72.7% Croatian + 27.3% West_German @ 2.93
14 80.1% Croatian + 19.9% Irish @ 2.96
15 63.3% Southwest_Russian + 36.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.97
16 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.97
17 50.3% East_German + 49.7% Croatian @ 2.98
18 51.9% Croatian + 48.1% Austrian @ 2.99
19 76.1% South_Polish + 23.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.03

[vbnetkhio]

For North some update:) Wife of my friend I have trustful info of her ancestry.

She has all 4 grandparents kajkavian Croats
So, her father from is from Zlatar, Krapinsko/zagorska županija
Her mother is half from Cestica, on border with Slovenia and half from mursko središče on border with Slovenija and Hungary


very typical for the region. added


Croat_north,31.28,33.43,14.32,7.22,9.91,1.18,0.61, 0.31,0.54,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.13
Croat,28.38,33.18,14.95,7.74,11.78,1.42,0.50,0.26, 0.56,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.13

[Lucas]

OK Lucas, if you don't wish to add the smaller English/Dutch regions (fair enough as they're not really necessary), could you just add/update these, and remove Ulster British/SW English, and that will suffice for these countries.

K13


English_Midlands,49.62,23.45,13.76,5.66,4.13,0.58, 0.96,0.20,0.22,0.47,0.43,0.25,0.21
English_Southwest,50.26,23.06,14.23,5.30,3.67,0.76 ,1.13,0.03,0.20,0.54,0.45,0.17,0.13
Irish,52.54,23.16,12.46,6.75,1.37,0.52,1.32,0.16,0 .21,0.85,0.30,0.16,0.13
Irish_Connacht,52.65,23.42,12.04,7.09,1.07,0.21,1. 59,0.10,0.28,0.90,0.21,0.22,0.10
Irish_Leinster,51.84,23.04,12.80,6.68,1.97,0.62,1. 09,0.31,0.09,0.74,0.39,0.19,0.16
Irish_Munster,52.87,22.83,12.42,6.79,1.52,0.35,1.3 4,0.19,0.28,0.78,0.23,0.16,0.16
Irish_Ulster,53.13,22.47,12.65,6.9,0.87,0.61,1.49, 0.10,0.36,0.84,0.32,0.05,0.14

K15


English_Midlands,36.27,27.78,10.09,8.73,9.54,3.87, 1.44,0.48,0.57,0.06,0.06,0.26,0.24,0.21,0.15
English_Southwest,35.79,29.10,9.64,8.78,10.15,3.15 ,1.13,0.57,0.83,0.01,0.04,0.27,0.27,0.13,0.09
Irish,36.87,30.46,9.78,8.67,7.52,4.04,0.36,0.34,0. 88,0.08,0.09,0.54,0.14,0.08,0.07
Irish_Connacht,37.58,30.41,9.11,9.30,7.27,3.87,0.0 7,0.09,1.09,0.04,0.11,0.67,0.13,0.11,0.07
Irish_Leinster,36.65,30.11,9.58,8.92,7.98,4.19,0.2 8,0.45,0.76,0.18,0.00,0.41,0.20,0.11,0.11
Irish_Munster,37.13,30.17,9.77,8.40,7.68,4.48,0.18 ,0.17,0.91,0.07,0.14,0.50,0.14,0.08,0.10
Irish_Ulster,36.62,30.93,9.31,8.62,7.70,4.34,0.04, 0.30,1.12,0.06,0.13,0.56,0.14,0.03,0.04

done

[Lucas]

Update for Dodecad K12b


English_North,9.01,0.25,0.27,0.03,38.47,44.34,0.25 ,0.02,0.65,0.10,6.54,0.02
English_South,9.09,0.26,0.41,0.14,38.28,43.01,0.24 ,0.07,0.94,0.04,7.44,0.02
Irish,10.69,0.23,0.05,0.04,39.30,44.41,0.22,0.02,0 .10,0.03,4.84,0.01
Scottish,10.25,0.19,0.21,0.16,38.53,44.21,0.23,0.0 1,0.40,0.03,5.73,0


English_North - 26
English_South - 35
Irish - 30
Scottish - 20

Distance to: English_North
1.11897274 English_mixed
1.70164626 English_South
1.79117280 Mixed_NW_Euro
2.49244860 Irish
2.57522815 Irish
3.29001520 Dutch
3.42112555 Dutch_Central
4.04555311 Dutch_North
4.48494147 Icelandic
5.51924814 Dutch_South
8.09982716 German
8.16905747 Swedish
9.58871211 French2
10.23483757 French
10.53464760 Bavarian_German
14.37151349 Slovenian
15.54159258 Slovak
16.15114237 Sorb_Lusatia
16.47149963 Hungarians
17.83157312 Croat

Distance to: English_South
0.67660919 English_mixed
1.84219977 English_North
2.36803716 Mixed_NW_Euro
3.29051668 Dutch
3.54928162 Irish
3.63469393 Dutch_Central
3.69617370 Irish
4.23837233 Dutch_South
5.03749938 Dutch_North
5.87048550 Icelandic
8.49688767 German
8.55565895 French2
9.11246948 Bavarian_German
9.20701906 French
9.40572166 Swedish
13.86794505 Slovenian
15.59183761 Slovak
16.20585080 Hungarians
16.63297628 Sorb_Lusatia
17.01635568 Italy_Aosta_Valley

Distance to: Irish
0.31638584 Irish
1.81785588 Mixed_NW_Euro
2.81732142 English_North
3.19740520 English_mixed
3.72675462 English_South
4.69557238 Dutch_North
4.71578201 Icelandic
5.42950274 Dutch
5.54221977 Dutch_Central
7.73586453 Dutch_South
8.87980856 Swedish
9.91194734 German
10.04644713 French2
10.71058355 French
12.66006714 Bavarian_German
16.67321505 Slovenian
17.46420911 Slovak
17.70507554 Sorb_Lusatia
18.66554580 Hungarians
19.38065530 PL_Warmia-Masuria

Distance to: Scottish
0.85211502 Mixed_NW_Euro
1.19503138 Irish
1.33214113 Irish
1.70076453 English_North
2.11279436 English_mixed
2.56304506 English_South
4.05900234 Dutch_North
4.22776537 Dutch
4.38336629 Dutch_Central
4.41389850 Icelandic
6.51482156 Dutch_South
8.48864536 Swedish
8.89934829 German
9.85646996 French2
10.53283912 French
11.47912018 Bavarian_German
15.41069758 Slovenian
16.37447098 Slovak
16.83302706 Sorb_Lusatia
17.46734382 Hungarians

Mixed NW Euro can be removed now IMO, and the duplicate old Irish averages.

added

[Lucas]

Reminder to update the above

ok

[Lucas]

Thank you! Lucas can add them.

Added new Croatian and Serbian refs.

[Lucas]

I also grouped Balkan Turkish samples. I could have made smaller one like Turk_Greece, Turk_Bulgaria etc... but I think the difference between regions in the same country is significant.


Turk_Western_Thrace,18.13666667,18.07,14.46333333, 14.55333333,23.87,3.053333333,0.56,1.393333333,4.1 93333333,0.673333333,0.356666667,0.043333333,0.316 666667
Turk_Eastern_Macedonia,19.61,20.485,16.035,15.235, 20.385,1.56,0.81,1.94,1.98,0.27,0.235,0.095,0.23
Turk_Central_Macedonia,19.29,19.58,17.35,12.55,26. 1,1.97,0,0.51,1.38,0.94,0,0,0.32
Turk_Bulgaria_East,19.03,11.49,14.52,19.18,23.94,3 .15,1.32,2.12,4.28,0.44,0,0.16,0.37
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86333333,21.44333333,13 .87666667,13.28666667,20.28333333,2.653333333,2.03 6666667,2.72,1.99,0.863333333,0.296666667,0.196666 667,0.493333333
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.69666667,18.65666667,15.3 9,15.38333333,18.53666667,2.72,2.336666667,1.65333 3333,3.256666667,0.893333333,0.196666667,0.17,0.11
Turk_Bulgaria_South,17.144,18.302,14.608,17.27,18. 11,3.092,0.878,3.074,5.95,0.83,0.282,0.296,0.172
Turk_Eastern_Thrace,13.92,14.66,16.81,19.56,20.22, 2.35,3.04,3.03,5.28,0.53,0.53,0.07,0

Cool but what to remove now:) Please post.

[Jana]

Fantastic! :) :thumbsup:

[Ion Basescul]

The recent update to the K13 references is looking good and cleaner than before


<tbody>
Distance to:
IonBasescul_MyHeritage


3.11846116
Moldova_average


3.25053842
Moldova_Centre


3.86539778
Romania_Moldavia_North


4.25556107
Serb_north


4.28092280
Bosniak_Krajina


4.29585847
Bosniak_Sarajevo


4.32268435
Bosniak


4.45554710
Moldova_North


4.75713149
Serb


4.75734169
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina


5.04804913
Romania_Maramures


5.31842082
Serb_central


5.40179600
Csángó


5.43645105
Croat_Littoral


6.02309721
Székely


6.13496536
Bosniak_Bosnia_proper


6.33107416
Romania_Moldavia_South


6.52592522
Hungarian_Transylvania


6.65592218
Croat_East


6.91711645
Romania_Crisana


6.96885930
Croat


7.07968926
Romania_Transylvania


7.19854152
Romania_average


7.72403392
Serb_south


7.79401694
Romania_Banat

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
IonBasescul_brother_MyHeritage


4.49091305
Moldova_North


4.70724973
Moldova_average


4.85384384
Moldova_Centre


5.44000000
Bosniak_Sarajevo


5.48571782
Bosniak_Krajina


5.96441950
Romania_Moldavia_North


6.13441929
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina


6.20151594
Serb_north


6.23719488
Bosniak


6.26962519
Bosniak_Bosnia_proper


6.80723879
Serb


7.22142645
Romania_Maramures


7.33548908
Croat_Littoral


7.42079511
Serb_central


8.01062420
Croat_East


8.36443662
Csángó


8.58984866
Romania_Moldavia_South


8.72953607
Croat


9.18155760
Romania_average


9.31432767
Székely


9.38398636
Romania_Transylvania


9.38750766
Serb_south


9.44433693
Romania_Crisana


9.56764861
Romania_Banat


9.77145332
Hungarian_Transylvania

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
IonBasescul_dad_MyHeritage


3.52249911
Moldova_North


4.24185101
Bosniak_Sarajevo


4.36440145
Bosniak_Krajina


4.40298762
Moldova_Centre


4.53496417
Moldova_average


4.67560691
Bosniak_Bosnia_proper


4.68123915
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina


4.70236111
Romania_Moldavia_North


4.94547268
Bosniak


5.19373661
Serb_north


5.40010185
Croat_Littoral


5.51075312
Croat_East


6.15230038
Serb


6.30759067
Croat


6.39852327
Csángó


6.62480943
Serb_central


6.87062588
Romania_Maramures


6.96288733
Székely


7.28671394
Hungarian_Transylvania


7.32235618
Hungarian_Alföld


8.19024420
Hungarian


8.25674270
Romania_Moldavia_South


8.65216736
Romania_Crisana


8.90559375
Hungarian_Budapest


9.02777381
Romania_Transylvania

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
IonBasescul_mom_MyHeritage


5.86180859
Moldova_North


6.87753590
Bosniak_Bosnia_proper


7.60333479
Bosniak_Sarajevo


8.07523374
Bosniak_Krajina


8.17120554
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina


8.18280514
Moldova_average


8.31579822
Moldova_Centre


8.86507755
Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk


8.99295836
Bosniak


9.09351967
Serb_north


9.11432938
Romania_Moldavia_North


9.16397294
Croat_East


9.40485513
Croat_Littoral


10.02540772
Serb


10.36692336
Croat


10.45405663
Serb_central


10.72422958
Romania_Maramures


11.58507229
Csángó


11.59522747
Hungarian_Alföld


12.27404579
Romania_Moldavia_South


12.42562674
Hungarian_Northern


12.42733278
Serb_south


12.70769845
Székely


12.90039922
Hungarian


12.90777673
Romania_average

</tbody>

[Luso]

I don't rlly see any differences for me but here are the results:

Distance: 2.10976715
Target: Luso
58.3 Spanish_Aragon
25.3 Swiss_Italian
7.0 Swedish
3.8 Algerian
2.2 Ethiopian_Tigray
1.8 Sandawe
1.6 Southwest_Finnish

Distance to: Luso
3.20937689 Portuguese
3.24086408 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
4.00842862 Spanish_Murcia
4.40542847 Spanish_Galicia
4.83487332 Spanish
4.98990982 Spanish_Cataluna
5.15888554 Spanish_Valencia
5.16947773 Spanish_Extremadura
6.00672956 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
6.66926533 FRA_Septimania
7.06527423 Spanish_Cantabria
7.22846457 Spanish_Andalucia
7.96462177 Swiss-Italian2
8.08659384 Swiss_Italian
8.26006659 Spanish_Aragon
9.33076096 Southwest_French
9.59571258 French
9.76610465 FRA_Provence
9.78630676 IT_Aosta_Valley
10.66864565 IT_Piedmont
10.98894444 FRA_Central
11.33091347 IT_Trentino
11.54409806 IT_Orobia
11.73568064 IT_Lombardy
12.14597053 IT_Insubria

[Leto]

added
Two almost identical Irish averages for Dodecad. I think the one in non-alphabetical order is to be deleted.

Also you keep forgetting Kaspias' Crimean Tatar average (not that it's super important) :)

[Leto]

Why is there a space before the first line (Abkhazian) in the updated Euro K13 spreadsheet?

[Thracian]

Cool but what to remove now:) Please post.

Sure.:)


Turk_Alexandroupoli,21.94,16.43,16.91,13.31,23.54, 4.30,0,0.35,2.08,0.99,0,0.13,0
Turk_Burgas,19.03,11.49,14.52,19.18,23.94,3.15,1.3 2,2.12,4.28,0.44,0,0.16,0.37
Turk_Dobrich,18.15,22.61,15.49,12.65,18.85,4.32,2. 72,2.17,0.35,1.73,0,0.59,0.38
Turk_Dobruja-Tatar,12.70,25.39,7.77,11.38,5.82,2.15,2.09,10.20, 20.74,0.91,0.52,0,0.33
Turk_Drama,17.20,22.87,15.61,15.52,19.94,1.52,1.62 ,2.76,1.90,0.27,0.26,0.19,0.34
Turk_Edirne,13.92,14.66,16.81,19.56,20.22,2.35,3.0 4,3.03,5.28,0.53,0.53,0.07,0
Turk_Kardzhali-Alevi,17.75,17.11,15.37,21.97,16.46,0.9,0.12,4.61, 5.19,0,0,0,0.53
Turk_Kardzhali-East,21.29,16.80,14.74,14.36,18.50,2.29,0.23,1.80, 5.40,2.55,1.10,0.66,0.29
Turk_Kardzhali-Mountaineer,15.65,18.37,15.33,17.42,17.18,3.97,0,3 .47,7.75,0.47,0,0.4,0
Turk_Kardzhali-South-Plain,14.6,18.22,12.61,16.66,21.62,4.36,0.63,2.34, 8.17,0.34,0,0.42,0.04
Turk_Kardzhali-West,16.43,21.01,14.99,15.94,16.79,3.94,3.41,3.15, 3.24,0.79,0.31,0,0
Turk_Kavala,22.02,18.10,16.46,14.95,20.83,1.60,0,1 .12,2.06,0.27,0.21,0,0.12
Turk_Kazanlik,20.10,16.93,17.68,11.70,22.85,1.50,2 .76,1.72,3.09,0.72,0.59,0.37,0
Turk_Razgrad,21.27,22.84,14.09,12.92,19.33,1.03,2. 24,2.57,2.24,0.25,0.12,0,1.10
Turk_Sliven-Alevi,20.29,20.76,14.36,19.19,13.55,2.51,2.98,2.70 ,1.95,1.38,0,0,0.33
Turk_Stara-Zagora,21.7,18.28,14.13,15.26,19.21,4.15,1.27,0.54 ,4.73,0.58,0,0.14,0
Turk_Targovishte,20.17,18.88,12.05,14.29,22.67,2.6 1,1.15,3.42,3.38,0.61,0.77,0,0
Turk_Thessaloniki,19.29,19.58,17.35,12.55,26.1,1.9 7,0,0.51,1.38,0.94,0,0,0.32
Turk_Xanthi,17.64,19.53,13.78,14.43,25.22,2.09,0,1 .91,3.70,0.16,0.61,0,0
Turk_Komotini,14.83,18.25,12.70,15.92,22.85,2.77,1 .68,1.92,6.80,0.87,0.46,0,0.95

[andre]

Distance to: Andre

3.26596081 Serb_south
3.46183477 Romania_Moldavia_South
3.96287774 Romania_Transylvania
4.00913956 Romania_Maramures
4.07308237 Romania_average
4.36727604 Bulgaria_Northwestern
4.41412505 Romania_Crisana
4.49706571 Montenegrin
4.51539589 Serb_central
4.59383282 Romania_Banat
4.87685349 Serb
4.89175838 Romania_Oltenia
5.16491045 Romania_Dobruja
5.26806416 Romania_Wallachia
5.29203175 Moldova_South
5.35659407 Pomak_Plovdiv
5.44190224 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.53314558 Bosniak_Sandzak
5.60279395 Romania_Muntenia
5.76411311 Moldova_Centre
5.80083615 Bulgaria_Southwestern
5.84374880 Moldova_average
5.93683417 Serb_north
6.21911569 Bosniak
6.26901109 Bulgaria_average

[Jana]

updated

Distance to: Stearsolina

4.65179535 Hungarian_Alföld
4.79614428 Hungarian
4.79646745 Hungarian_Budapest
4.83141801 Croat
4.85892992 Croat_north
5.09476202 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.31404742 Croat_East
5.66190781 Slovenian
6.07842907 Bosniak_Krajina
6.12486735 Croat_Littoral
6.18673581 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.53330697 Hungarian_Northern
6.62190305 Csángó
6.66280722 Bosniak_Bosnia_proper
6.69527445 Székely
6.91244530 Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina
7.29110417 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.36825624 Bosniak
7.37693026 Moldova_North
7.73123535 Serb_north
7.82170429 Slovak
8.26548849 Romania_Moldavia_North
8.84700514 Serb
8.99079529 Serb_central
9.03538599 Moldova_Centre

Distance to: Stears

4.97043258 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.06798777 Hungarian_Budapest
5.17339347 Hungarian
5.61604843 Croat_north
5.64990265 Hungarian_Alföld
6.07210837 Croat_East
6.20625491 Croat
6.34681810 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.72235078 Slovenian
6.74123876 Hungarian_Northern
6.92477436 Székely
7.14455037 Csángó
7.69354275 Croat_Littoral
7.94877349 Bosniak_Bosnia_proper
8.09610996 Slovak
8.40790699 Bosniak_Krajina
8.46106967 Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina
8.52184252 Bosniak_Sarajevo
8.57161012 Moldova_North
8.66330191 Bosniak
8.87653649 Romania_Moldavia_North
8.95067037 Austrian
8.97809000 Czech
9.29952687 Serb_north
9.64298709 Moldova_Centre

[Ion Basescul]

Distance to: Andre

3.26596081 Serb_south
3.46183477 Romania_Moldavia_South
3.96287774 Romania_Transylvania
4.00913956 Romania_Maramures
4.07308237 Romania_average
4.36727604 Bulgaria_Northwestern
4.41412505 Romania_Crisana
4.49706571 Montenegrin
4.51539589 Serb_central
4.59383282 Romania_Banat
4.87685349 Serb
4.89175838 Romania_Oltenia
5.16491045 Romania_Dobruja
5.26806416 Romania_Wallachia
5.29203175 Moldova_South
5.35659407 Pomak_Plovdiv
5.44190224 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.53314558 Bosniak_Sandzak
5.60279395 Romania_Muntenia
5.76411311 Moldova_Centre
5.80083615 Bulgaria_Southwestern
5.84374880 Moldova_average
5.93683417 Serb_north
6.21911569 Bosniak
6.26901109 Bulgaria_average

I think these are the best averages that you've got so far.

[Dunai]

Since the averages of Transdanubia and Budapest area are so close, and are also pretty much connected historically, I was thinking to merge these two and make a Transdanubia+Budapest single average. What do you guys think? I believe it's better if Hungary has only 3 regions+Transylvania.

[Ion Basescul]

Since the averages of Transdanubia and Budapest area are so close, and are also pretty much connected historically, I was thinking to merge these two and make a Transdanubia+Budapest single average. What do you guys think? I believe it's better if Hungary has only 3 regions+Transylvania.

It's your choice ultimately. From my experience on Moldova and Romania, capital regions are close to the surrounding area, with minor differences attributed to migrants, both internal and external.

[Jana]

Since the averages of Transdanubia and Budapest area are so close, and are also pretty much connected historically, I was thinking to merge these two and make a Transdanubia+Budapest single average. What do you guys think? I believe it's better if Hungary has only 3 regions+Transylvania.

Yeah, makes sense.

[Dunai]

It's your choice ultimately. From my experience on Moldova and Romania, capital regions are close to the surrounding area, with minor differences attributed to migrants, both internal and external.

Yes, I do find larger region averages more helpful, rather than reducing them too much into sub-regions, unless if historically and culturally it is rather important to do so (as is the case of separating neighboring Székelys from Csángós).

[17571imre]

Since the averages of Transdanubia and Budapest area are so close, and are also pretty much connected historically, I was thinking to merge these two and make a Transdanubia+Budapest single average. What do you guys think? I believe it's better if Hungary has only 3 regions+Transylvania.


i agree with this idea

[Jana]

Now we finally have respectable sample size for Croatian regions, except for east(Slavonia), which should improve reliability of these averages:

Littoral 48
North 41
East 7
Bosnia-Herzegovina 52

However as already said there is a person possessing 70 Slavonian (eastern) Croat gedmatch kits, who agreed to share them and despite she still didn't there is a hope we see them one day and improve eastern average significantly.

[Impaler]

Updated:

Distance to: Impaler
6.95099992 Turk_Bulgaria_Central
6.97003985 Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast
8.09246872 Turk_Eastern_Macedonia
8.12070810 Turk_Balkan_average
8.39867251 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
8.74612739 Turk_Western_Thrace
8.89303098 Bulgaria_Northeastern
9.15427769 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
9.23794349 MacedonianWest
9.51309098 Pomak_Drama
9.56806668 Bulgaria_Southeastern
9.62356483 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
9.68487997 MacedonianEast
9.69077396 Turk_Central_Macedonia
9.70603936 MacedonianCentral
9.76225896 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
9.78160519 MacedonianNorthWest
9.82931330 Bulgaria_Southcentral
9.86289511 Macedonian_Average
9.88468007 MacedonianPelagonia
9.97186542 Bulgaria_Northcentral
9.98393710 MacedonianSouthWest
10.03396731 Bulgaria_average
10.05594849 Bulgaria_Southwestern
10.05707214 MacedonianGreeceNorthWest

Distance: 235.5620% / 2.35561999
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.6 Turk_Central_Macedonia
20.9 Turk_Bulgaria_East
16.9 North_German
6.6 Chamar

[oszkar07]

Updated

Distance to: Oszkar
3.72317069 Austrian
5.04733593 German_East
6.84580163 German
7.72020077 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.93366246 Hungarian_Budapest
8.14288647 Czech
8.20928133 Croat_north
8.25083632 Slovenian
8.77519800 Hungarian
9.59022419 Hungarian_Northern
9.87765876 Slovak
9.98206892 Hungarian_Alföld
10.03557173 FRA_Alsace
10.13897924 German_West
10.81012026 Swiss_German
11.34536469 Croat
11.34722874 North_German
11.42959317 Hungarian_Transylvania
11.68116861 Dutch_South
11.72224381 Swiss_German2
12.05646714 Pennsylvania_Dutch
12.07142494 Sorb_Lusatia
12.36786158 Székely
12.46889730 Croat_East
12.48244768 Sweden_Svealand_East
12.55726085 Swedish
12.70312954 Csángó
12.70418829 FRA_Belgica
12.93080431 Dutch
13.26481813 Swiss_French
13.46034546 Croat_Littoral
13.48333416 Dutch_Central
13.53704547 Dutch_North
13.72289692 North-Swedish
13.86021284 South_Polish
13.94702477 Sweden_Svealand_West
14.37213972 English_Southeast
14.55567587 Sweden_Götaland
14.57431302 Denmark
14.62748099 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
14.64223685 Bosniak_Bosnia_proper
14.68415813 English_Midlands
14.69716980 FRA_Armorica
14.82737333 Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina
14.83493175 Bosniak_Krajina
14.90192269 Norway_South_Central
14.96533661 English
15.09196806 Bosniak
15.24642253 Norwegian
15.36027018 Bosniak_Sarajevo

[Leto]

Updated:

Distance to: Impaler
6.95099992 Turk_Bulgaria_Central
6.97003985 Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast
8.09246872 Turk_Eastern_Macedonia
8.12070810 Turk_Balkan_average
8.39867251 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
8.74612739 Turk_Western_Thrace
8.89303098 Bulgaria_Northeastern
9.15427769 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
9.23794349 MacedonianWest
9.51309098 Pomak_Drama
9.56806668 Bulgaria_Southeastern
9.62356483 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
9.68487997 MacedonianEast
9.69077396 Turk_Central_Macedonia
9.70603936 MacedonianCentral
9.76225896 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
9.78160519 MacedonianNorthWest
9.82931330 Bulgaria_Southcentral
9.86289511 Macedonian_Average
9.88468007 MacedonianPelagonia
9.97186542 Bulgaria_Northcentral
9.98393710 MacedonianSouthWest
10.03396731 Bulgaria_average
10.05594849 Bulgaria_Southwestern
10.05707214 MacedonianGreeceNorthWest

Distance: 235.5620% / 2.35561999
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.6 Turk_Central_Macedonia
20.9 Turk_Bulgaria_East
16.9 North_German
6.6 Chamar
Try removing the Balkan Turk populations.

[Dunai]

Okay, in K13, delete these:
Hungarian,30.52,32.40,14.21,7.17,10.58,1.23,0.92,0 .51,1.19,0.56,0.36,0.19,0.16
Hungarian_Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11,7.29,9.79,1.3 7,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16
Hungarian_Transdanubia,31.72,31.63,13.96,7.34,10.5 6,1.07,0.98,0.4,1.08,0.56,0.31,0.17,0.2

And add these:
Hungarian,30.43,32.55,14.23,7.16,10.44,1.29,0.9,0. 54,1.19,0.55,0.36,0.2,0.15
Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11, 7.29,9.79,1.37,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16 (n=130)

[Leto]

Updated:

Distance to: Impaler
6.95099992 Turk_Bulgaria_Central
6.97003985 Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast
8.09246872 Turk_Eastern_Macedonia
8.12070810 Turk_Balkan_average
8.39867251 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
8.74612739 Turk_Western_Thrace
8.89303098 Bulgaria_Northeastern
9.15427769 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
9.23794349 MacedonianWest
9.51309098 Pomak_Drama
9.56806668 Bulgaria_Southeastern
9.62356483 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
9.68487997 MacedonianEast
9.69077396 Turk_Central_Macedonia
9.70603936 MacedonianCentral
9.76225896 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
9.78160519 MacedonianNorthWest
9.82931330 Bulgaria_Southcentral
9.86289511 Macedonian_Average
9.88468007 MacedonianPelagonia
9.97186542 Bulgaria_Northcentral
9.98393710 MacedonianSouthWest
10.03396731 Bulgaria_average
10.05594849 Bulgaria_Southwestern
10.05707214 MacedonianGreeceNorthWest

Distance: 235.5620% / 2.35561999
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.6 Turk_Central_Macedonia
20.9 Turk_Bulgaria_East
16.9 North_German
6.6 Chamar
Try removing the Balkan Turk populations.

[Ion Basescul]

Updated:


Distance to: Impaler
6.95099992 Turk_Bulgaria_Central
6.97003985 Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast
8.09246872 Turk_Eastern_Macedonia
8.12070810 Turk_Balkan_average
8.39867251 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
8.74612739 Turk_Western_Thrace
8.89303098 Bulgaria_Northeastern
9.15427769 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
9.23794349 MacedonianWest
9.51309098 Pomak_Drama
9.56806668 Bulgaria_Southeastern
9.62356483 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
9.68487997 MacedonianEast
9.69077396 Turk_Central_Macedonia
9.70603936 MacedonianCentral
9.76225896 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
9.78160519 MacedonianNorthWest
9.82931330 Bulgaria_Southcentral
9.86289511 Macedonian_Average
9.88468007 MacedonianPelagonia
9.97186542 Bulgaria_Northcentral
9.98393710 MacedonianSouthWest
10.03396731 Bulgaria_average
10.05594849 Bulgaria_Southwestern
10.05707214 MacedonianGreeceNorthWest

Distance: 235.5620% / 2.35561999
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.6 Turk_Central_Macedonia
20.9 Turk_Bulgaria_East
16.9 North_German
6.6 Chamar

It's definitely simpler than that IMO.

[Leto]

The Balkan Roma are ca. 1/3 Chamar(-like).

[J. Ketch]

Two almost identical Irish averages for Dodecad. I think the one in non-alphabetical order is to be deleted.

Yes, and delete Southwest English (k13/k15) and Ulster British (k15) please!

[Lucas]

Sure.:)


Turk_Alexandroupoli,21.94,16.43,16.91,13.31,23.54, 4.30,0,0.35,2.08,0.99,0,0.13,0
Turk_Burgas,19.03,11.49,14.52,19.18,23.94,3.15,1.3 2,2.12,4.28,0.44,0,0.16,0.37
Turk_Dobrich,18.15,22.61,15.49,12.65,18.85,4.32,2. 72,2.17,0.35,1.73,0,0.59,0.38
Turk_Dobruja-Tatar,12.70,25.39,7.77,11.38,5.82,2.15,2.09,10.20, 20.74,0.91,0.52,0,0.33
Turk_Drama,17.20,22.87,15.61,15.52,19.94,1.52,1.62 ,2.76,1.90,0.27,0.26,0.19,0.34
Turk_Edirne,13.92,14.66,16.81,19.56,20.22,2.35,3.0 4,3.03,5.28,0.53,0.53,0.07,0
Turk_Kardzhali-Alevi,17.75,17.11,15.37,21.97,16.46,0.9,0.12,4.61, 5.19,0,0,0,0.53
Turk_Kardzhali-East,21.29,16.80,14.74,14.36,18.50,2.29,0.23,1.80, 5.40,2.55,1.10,0.66,0.29
Turk_Kardzhali-Mountaineer,15.65,18.37,15.33,17.42,17.18,3.97,0,3 .47,7.75,0.47,0,0.4,0
Turk_Kardzhali-South-Plain,14.6,18.22,12.61,16.66,21.62,4.36,0.63,2.34, 8.17,0.34,0,0.42,0.04
Turk_Kardzhali-West,16.43,21.01,14.99,15.94,16.79,3.94,3.41,3.15, 3.24,0.79,0.31,0,0
Turk_Kavala,22.02,18.10,16.46,14.95,20.83,1.60,0,1 .12,2.06,0.27,0.21,0,0.12
Turk_Kazanlik,20.10,16.93,17.68,11.70,22.85,1.50,2 .76,1.72,3.09,0.72,0.59,0.37,0
Turk_Razgrad,21.27,22.84,14.09,12.92,19.33,1.03,2. 24,2.57,2.24,0.25,0.12,0,1.10
Turk_Sliven-Alevi,20.29,20.76,14.36,19.19,13.55,2.51,2.98,2.70 ,1.95,1.38,0,0,0.33
Turk_Stara-Zagora,21.7,18.28,14.13,15.26,19.21,4.15,1.27,0.54 ,4.73,0.58,0,0.14,0
Turk_Targovishte,20.17,18.88,12.05,14.29,22.67,2.6 1,1.15,3.42,3.38,0.61,0.77,0,0
Turk_Thessaloniki,19.29,19.58,17.35,12.55,26.1,1.9 7,0,0.51,1.38,0.94,0,0,0.32
Turk_Xanthi,17.64,19.53,13.78,14.43,25.22,2.09,0,1 .91,3.70,0.16,0.61,0,0
Turk_Komotini,14.83,18.25,12.70,15.92,22.85,2.77,1 .68,1.92,6.80,0.87,0.46,0,0.95



Done

[Lucas]

Yes, I do find larger region averages more helpful, rather than reducing them too much into sub-regions, unless if historically and culturally it is rather important to do so (as is the case of separating neighboring Székelys from Csángós).

If Csangos reference is really needed? I read there are few thousands them now.

[Lucas]

Okay, in K13, delete these:
Hungarian,30.52,32.40,14.21,7.17,10.58,1.23,0.92,0 .51,1.19,0.56,0.36,0.19,0.16
Hungarian_Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11,7.29,9.79,1.3 7,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16
Hungarian_Transdanubia,31.72,31.63,13.96,7.34,10.5 6,1.07,0.98,0.4,1.08,0.56,0.31,0.17,0.2

And add these:
Hungarian,30.43,32.55,14.23,7.16,10.44,1.29,0.9,0. 54,1.19,0.55,0.36,0.2,0.15
Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11, 7.29,9.79,1.37,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16 (n=130)

Done.

[Scandal]

Distance to: Universe(hungarian)
4.91745869 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
6.59097868 Hungarian_Northern
6.96850527 Slovak
7.93222541 Croat_East
8.19957926 Slovenian
8.29821065 Bosniak_Bosnia_proper
8.41940022 South_Polish
8.54535546 Croat
8.56040303 Sorb_Lusatia
8.64296824 Hungarian_Alföld
8.70425183 Czech
8.78829335 Croat_north
9.04845843 Hungarian
9.13637784 Ukrainian_Lviv
9.28479941 Ukrainian
9.50993165 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
9.98504382 Croat_Littoral
10.18466494 Moldova_North
10.33116644 Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina
10.51708610 Bosniak_Sarajevo
11.18266516 Bosniak_Krajina
11.48936465 Polish
11.54340071 Bosniak
11.86099911 Southwest_Russian
11.97828452 Masurian

[Lucas]

Yes, and delete Southwest English (k13/k15) and Ulster British (k15) please!

Done.

[Impaler]

The Balkan Roma are ca. 1/3 Chamar(-like).

I removed all Balkan_Turk samples + Balkan Roma, because there are 2 Roma samples. The fit is worse for me. For Mortimer is the best calculator ever with this run. He scored exactly his known ancestry(documented). But as you see even Thracian who is a Balkan Turk scored Romani. I just think these samples are not good for us to fit our ancestry.

Distance: 204.4986% / 2.04498621
Target: Mortimer | ADC: 0.25x RC
56.8 Romani
22.1 Vlach_North-Macedonia
14.4 Romania_Oltenia
3.5 Pomak_Kavala
3.2 IT_Aosta_Valley

Distance: 345.0657% / 3.45065662
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.7 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
19.9 Greek_Northern-Thrace
19.0 FRA_Provence
8.3 Turkmen
4.6 Austroasiatic_Ho
2.6 Romani
2.2 Ashkenazi
0.7 Yoruban

Distance: 107.5214% / 1.07521442
Target: Thracian | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.9 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
40.5 Greek_Istanbul
13.2 Romani
3.0 Dolgan
1.4 Tadjik

[Dunai]

If Csangos reference is really needed? I read there are few thousands them now.

Most definitely there has to be, since they have a most unique culture and also speak a very unique dialect of Hungarian. There are tens of thousands of Csángós, maybe close to 100.000, but indeed, only a few thousand still speak their language, since the rest adopted Romanian. However they are deeply Roman-Catholics, and mostly marry each other, while surrounding Moldavians are largely Orthodox.

[andre]

If Csangos reference is really needed? I read there are few thousands them now.

:mad:

[oszkar07]

Okay, in K13, delete these:
Hungarian,30.52,32.40,14.21,7.17,10.58,1.23,0.92,0 .51,1.19,0.56,0.36,0.19,0.16
Hungarian_Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11,7.29,9.79,1.3 7,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16
Hungarian_Transdanubia,31.72,31.63,13.96,7.34,10.5 6,1.07,0.98,0.4,1.08,0.56,0.31,0.17,0.2

And add these:
Hungarian,30.43,32.55,14.23,7.16,10.44,1.29,0.9,0. 54,1.19,0.55,0.36,0.2,0.15
Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest,31.23,32.45,14.11, 7.29,9.79,1.37,0.91,0.59,1.06,0.51,0.3,0.22,0.16 (n=130)


Okay okay

Distance to: Oszkar
3.72317069 Austrian
5.04733593 German_East
6.84580163 German
7.93366246 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
8.14288647 Czech
8.20928133 Croat_north
8.25083632 Slovenian
8.82024943 Hungarian
9.59022419 Hungarian_Northern
9.87765876 Slovak
9.98206892 Hungarian_Alföld
10.03557173 FRA_Alsace
10.13897924 German_West
10.81012026 Swiss_German
11.34536469 Croat
11.34722874 North_German
11.42959317 Hungarian_Transylvania
11.68116861 Dutch_South
11.72224381 Swiss_German2
12.05646714 Pennsylvania_Dutch
12.07142494 Sorb_Lusatia
12.36786158 Székely
12.46889730 Croat_East
12.48244768 Sweden_Svealand_East
12.55726085 Swedish
12.70312954 Csángó
12.70418829 FRA_Belgica
12.93080431 Dutch
13.26481813 Swiss_French
13.46034546 Croat_Littoral
13.48333416 Dutch_Central
13.53704547 Dutch_North
13.72289692 North-Swedish
13.86021284 South_Polish
13.94702477 Sweden_Svealand_West
14.37213972 English_Southeast
14.55567587 Sweden_Götaland
14.57431302 Denmark
14.62748099 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
14.64223685 Bosniak_Bosnia_proper
14.68415813 English_Midlands
14.69716980 FRA_Armorica
14.82737333 Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina
14.83493175 Bosniak_Krajina
14.90192269 Norway_South_Central
14.96533661 English
15.09196806 Bosniak
15.24642253 Norwegian
15.36027018 Bosniak_Sarajevo
15.36411403 English_North

[Leto]

I removed all Balkan_Turk samples + Balkan Roma, because there are 2 Roma samples. The fit is worse for me. For Mortimer is the best calculator ever with this run. He scored exactly his known ancestry(documented). But as you see even Thracian who is a Balkan Turk scored Romani. I just think these samples are not good for us to fit our ancestry.

Distance: 204.4986% / 2.04498621
Target: Mortimer | ADC: 0.25x RC
56.8 Romani
22.1 Vlach_North-Macedonia
14.4 Romania_Oltenia
3.5 Pomak_Kavala
3.2 IT_Aosta_Valley

Distance: 345.0657% / 3.45065662
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.7 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
19.9 Greek_Northern-Thrace
19.0 FRA_Provence
8.3 Turkmen
4.6 Austroasiatic_Ho
2.6 Romani
2.2 Ashkenazi
0.7 Yoruban

Distance: 107.5214% / 1.07521442
Target: Thracian | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.9 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
40.5 Greek_Istanbul
13.2 Romani
3.0 Dolgan
1.4 Tadjik
Well, you do have South Asian, there is no point trying to explain that away. No county of Romania has the same amount as you do. You literally got 6.6% Chamar. I could have some doubts if there was no massive amount of samples collected by Ion Basescul. Your SA is ca. half of what Mortimer has and he is half Gypsy.
But ultimately even full Gypsies are only 30-35% proper South Asian ("Chamar"), so in quarter Gypsies it's pretty much miniscule (about 8%).

[Jana]

Well, you do have South Asian, there is no point trying to explain that away. No county of Romania has the same amount as you do. You literally got 6.6% Chamar. I could have some doubts if there was no massive amount of samples collected by Ion Basescul. Your SA is ca. half of what Mortimer has and he is half Gypsy.
But ultimately even full Gypsies are only 30-35% proper South Asian ("Chamar"), so in quarter Gypsies it's pretty much miniscule (about 8%).

Mortimer isn't half Gypsy but more than that (between 60-70%).

[Leto]

Mortimer isn't half Gypsy but more than that (between 60-70%).
I don't think so. Definitely not 70%. I treat him as a half Serb. But that doesn't matter, his South Asian is slightly more than twice as large as Impaler's, that was my point.

[Impaler]

Well, you do have South Asian, there is no point trying to explain that away. No county of Romania has the same amount as you do. You literally got 6.6% Chamar. I could have some doubts if there was no massive amount of samples collected by Ion Basescul. Your SA is ca. half of what Mortimer has and he is half Gypsy.
But ultimately even full Gypsies are only 30-35% proper South Asian ("Chamar"), so in quarter Gypsies it's pretty much miniscule (about 8%).

According to your logic one of my parents should be half Gypsy and that's impossible. How to be half Gypsy and to not know about it? You care too much about these amateurs results. If I had very recent Gypsy ancestry all of us should have known.

[Jana]

I don't think so. Definitely not 70%. I treat him as a half Serb. But that doesn't matter, his South Asian is slightly more than twice as large as Impaler's, that was my point.

No, he isn't half Serb because his Serb father is 1/4 Gypsy. His Gypsy mother is said to have some Russian ancestry though.
From what I saw he is above 60% Gypsy, not half at all.

[Jana]

According to your logic one of my parents should be half Gypsy and that's impossible. How to be half Gypsy and to not know about it? You care too much about these amateurs results. If I had very recent Gypsy ancestry all of us should have known.

You can test them and mystery will be solved. Do you score Indian/Pakistani on 23andme?

[Leto]

According to your logic one of my parents should be half Gypsy and that's impossible. How to be half Gypsy and to not know about it? You care too much about these amateurs results. If I had very recent Gypsy ancestry all of us should have known.
I don't know how it came to be. Maybe some of your recent ancestors simply assimilated successfully and didn't talk much about his/her roots. Or alternatively it may have come from both parents. Don't you get a few solid Romani matches? I think someone told me that. If you score it and also get reliable matches then it must be real. Such is the rule of thumb.

[Leto]

No, he isn't half Serb because his Serb father is 1/4 Gypsy. His Gypsy mother is said to have some Russian ancestry though.
From what I saw he is above 60% Gypsy, not half at all.
I think he has always said 56.25% Gypsy. Anyway, there was no point for you to pick on my message to another user. 50 or 56%, no huge difference.

[Ion Basescul]

I removed all Balkan_Turk samples + Balkan Roma, because there are 2 Roma samples. The fit is worse for me. For Mortimer is the best calculator ever with this run. He scored exactly his known ancestry(documented). But as you see even Thracian who is a Balkan Turk scored Romani. I just think these samples are not good for us to fit our ancestry.

Distance: 204.4986% / 2.04498621
Target: Mortimer | ADC: 0.25x RC
56.8 Romani
22.1 Vlach_North-Macedonia
14.4 Romania_Oltenia
3.5 Pomak_Kavala
3.2 IT_Aosta_Valley

Distance: 345.0657% / 3.45065662
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.7 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
19.9 Greek_Northern-Thrace
19.0 FRA_Provence
8.3 Turkmen
4.6 Austroasiatic_Ho
2.6 Romani
2.2 Ashkenazi
0.7 Yoruban

Distance: 107.5214% / 1.07521442
Target: Thracian | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.9 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
40.5 Greek_Istanbul
13.2 Romani
3.0 Dolgan
1.4 Tadjik

I can make it look good for you, if you give me your permission to model you with Roma. I know that some people take offense in this ancestry.

[Jana]

I think he has always said 56.25% Gypsy. Anyway, there was no point for you to pick on my message to another user. 50 or 56%, no huge difference.

Maybe you are right, he could've said it's actually his paternal grandpa who was 1/4 Gypsy which would make his father only 1/8. Regardless, it's none of your business to command me to whom I'll reply.

[Jana]

Impaler is party Macedonian Greek (quater or so?) so in any model for him northern/macedonian Greek average needs to be included.

[Impaler]

Impaler is party Macedonian Greek (quater or so?) so in any model for him northern/macedonian Greek average needs to be included.

Yeah, my mother is 1/8 Greek from Thessaloniki (documented).

[Impaler]

You can test them and mystery will be solved. Do you score Indian/Pakistani on 23andme?

I will test my father soon. I suspect him for some "exotic" ancestry. I score Indian/Pakistani, Central Asian, German, Scandinavian etc.

[Jana]

10 closest nations to Croats after the update, looks neat :)

https://i.imgur.com/LdDpDbe.png

[Abriekman]

I will test my father soon. I suspect him for some "exotic" ancestry. I score Indian/Pakistani, Central Asian, German, Scandinavian etc.

If you are Balkan and score Indian or Central Asian on 23andme, that strongly indicates Roma ancestry. People of ethnicites like Jews or Romani hid their ethnicity, so if you do not know about it , does not mean you do not have it

[Abriekman]

Distance: 234.5736% / 2.34573626
Target: Abriekman
59.8 Ukrainian_Belgorod
27.7 Ukrainian_Lviv
6.7 Greek_Cypriot
4.6 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
0.5 Abhkasian
0.5 NAN_Melanesian
0.2 North_Kannadi

[J. Ketch]

My Scottish average, made from 30/31 kits (10 academic + 20/21 collected). In the important aspects it's between the English and Irish averages (but closer to Irish), which is what I was hoping for.

K13

Scottish,51.86,23.30,12.23,6.77,2.51,0.58,1.21,0.2 1,0.29,0.60,0.24,0.11,0.03


English,49.92,23.49,13.55,5.65,3.78,0.70,1.08,0.14 ,0.26,0.55,0.41,0.22,0.19
Irish,52.54,23.16,12.46,6.75,1.37,0.52,1.32,0.16,0 .21,0.85,0.30,0.16,0.13
Scottish_current,52.74,22.77,12.06,6.59,1.74,0.62, 1.28,0.04,0.43,0.97,0.40,0.07,0.04


Distance to: Scottish
0.90774446 Irish_Leinster
1.38877644 Scottish
1.39215660 Irish
1.54266004 Irish_Munster
1.80333025 Irish_Connacht
2.01280898 West_Scottish
2.22249859 English_North
2.31531855 Irish_Ulster
2.41132744 Orcadian
2.91815010 English
3.20385705 English_Southwest
3.37786915 English_Midlands
3.61506570 English_Southeast
4.22360036 Dutch_Central
4.52616836 Welsh
4.55042855 Dutch
4.60116290 Dutch_North
5.30527096 FRA_Armorica
6.08152119 Norwegian
6.18532942 Denmark
6.68906570 Norway_South_Central
6.75524241 North_German
6.95542953 Sweden_Götaland
7.43595320 Dutch_South
8.56477670 Sweden_Svealand_West


K15

Scottish,36.81,29.91,9.49,9.10,7.83,4.23,0.60,0.34 ,0.90,0.06,0.10,0.36,0.11,0.07,0.01


English,36.13,28.23,10.12,8.75,9.42,3.75,1.30,0.48 ,0.72,0.05,0.09,0.30,0.24,0.17,0.13
Irish,36.87,30.46,9.78,8.67,7.52,4.04,0.36,0.34,0. 88,0.08,0.09,0.54,0.14,0.08,0.07
Scotland_current,37.96,28.39,9.51,10.04,7.46,3.26, 1.28,0.26,0.76,0.03,0.19,0.48,0.13,0.03,0.25


Distance to: Scottish
0.55758407 Irish_Leinster
0.89599107 Irish
1.02917443 Irish_Munster
1.33274154 Irish_Ulster
1.39721151 Irish_Connacht
1.91564611 Welsh
2.12812124 West_Scottish
2.23633629 English_North
2.48316331 Scotland
2.67391099 English
2.95951009 English_Southwest
3.04645696 English_Midlands
3.17679083 English_Southeast
3.39417147 Orcadian
4.18288178 Dutch_Central
4.79873942 Dutch
4.94833305 FRA_Armorica
6.61582194 North_German
6.71699338 Dutch_North
6.78445282 Danish
7.19071624 Dutch_South
7.56712627 Belgium
8.34733490 Norway
8.74193914 Norwegian
8.83871597 Swedish

[Leto]

Dodecad for Grace O'Mally

Distance to: Grace_O'Malley(Irish)
2.15555097 Icelandic
2.40260276 Irish
2.57120594 Scottish
2.89447750 Mixed_NW_Euro
3.04333698 English_North
3.04663749 Dutch_North
4.10363254 English_mixed
4.53270339 English_South
4.61997835 Dutch_Central
4.75538642 Dutch

Distance: 43.4269% / 0.43426945
Target: Grace_O'Malley(Irish) | ADC: 0.25x RC
52.8 Icelandic
47.2 Irish

Distance: 42.1842% / 0.42184219
Target: Grace_O'Malley(Irish)
70.8 Irish
19.3 Icelandic
7.2 Swedish
2.7 Latvian

[J. Ketch]

Dodecad for Grace O'Mally

Distance to: Grace_O'Malley(Irish)
2.15555097 Icelandic
2.40260276 Irish
2.57120594 Scottish
2.89447750 Mixed_NW_Euro
3.04333698 English_North
3.04663749 Dutch_North
4.10363254 English_mixed
4.53270339 English_South
4.61997835 Dutch_Central
4.75538642 Dutch

Distance: 43.4269% / 0.43426945
Target: Grace_O'Malley(Irish) | ADC: 0.25x RC
52.8 Icelandic
47.2 Irish

Distance: 42.1842% / 0.42184219
Target: Grace_O'Malley(Irish)
70.8 Irish
19.3 Icelandic
7.2 Swedish
2.7 Latvian
She's always an outlier for Irish tbh, same as my father.

[J. Ketch]

Irish and English were updated too?
No, I just put them there as a comparison.

[Lucas]

Dodecad for Grace O'Mally

Distance to: Grace_O'Malley(Irish)
2.15555097 Icelandic
2.40260276 Irish
2.57120594 Scottish
2.89447750 Mixed_NW_Euro
3.04333698 English_North
3.04663749 Dutch_North
4.10363254 English_mixed
4.53270339 English_South
4.61997835 Dutch_Central
4.75538642 Dutch

Distance: 43.4269% / 0.43426945
Target: Grace_O'Malley(Irish) | ADC: 0.25x RC
52.8 Icelandic
47.2 Irish

Distance: 42.1842% / 0.42184219
Target: Grace_O'Malley(Irish)
70.8 Irish
19.3 Icelandic
7.2 Swedish
2.7 Latvian

She has old Scandinavian input. Always is more Germanic than average.

[Leto]

She's always an outlier for Irish tbh, same as my father.
Well, the Icelanders are almost half Irish, so that's nothing extraordinary.

[J. Ketch]

Well, the Icelanders are almost half Irish, so that's nothing extraordinary.
Yes, and Irish are supposedly around 20% Germanic.


Distance to: CreodaDad
2.40941902 Icelandic
3.13907630 Irish
3.76337614 Scottish
3.76944293 Dutch_North
4.19779704 Mixed_NW_Euro
4.26668490 English_North
5.34545601 English_mixed
5.76243872 Dutch_Central
5.84387714 English_South
5.96382428 Dutch
6.09380833 Swedish
8.64993642 German
9.42692421 Dutch_South
13.03987730 French2
13.69189906 French
14.52906742 Bavarian_German
15.73966327 Sorb_Lusatia
16.26497156 Slovak
16.52050847 Slovenian
16.87600960 PL_Warmia-Masuria
18.01653407 Hungarians
18.65911038 Polish_mixed
20.42884236 Croat
20.47419351 Ukrainian
21.29453451 HUN_Szekely

Distance to: CreodaMum
1.92093727 English_North
1.93119134 English_mixed
2.00377144 English_South
2.76817629 Dutch
2.93872421 Mixed_NW_Euro
2.94477503 Dutch_Central
2.99979999 Scottish
4.14354920 Irish
4.47992187 Dutch_North
4.54575626 Dutch_South
5.02510696 Icelandic
7.32315506 German
8.23945993 Swedish
9.36813749 Bavarian_German
10.04372441 French2
10.60646501 French
13.05293837 Slovenian
14.47797292 Slovak
15.19842426 Hungarians
15.31296183 Sorb_Lusatia
16.46273367 Croat
16.91333202 HUN_Szekely
17.60549062 PL_Warmia-Masuria
17.96532772 Bosnian
17.99064260 Italy_Aosta_Valley

Distance to: Creoda
1.09649441 Irish
2.26059727 Scottish
2.77884868 Mixed_NW_Euro
3.18733431 English_North
3.98923552 English_mixed
4.33624261 Icelandic
4.51993363 English_South
4.76615149 Dutch_North
5.93722999 Dutch
5.94220498 Dutch_Central
8.36675564 Swedish
8.58214425 Dutch_South
9.98982983 German
10.79057459 French2
11.43345092 French
13.57610769 Bavarian_German
17.13371238 Slovenian
17.59792886 Sorb_Lusatia
17.63909862 Slovak
18.98989205 Hungarians
19.05132541 PL_Warmia-Masuria
20.64319985 Polish_mixed
20.74564774 Croat
21.00900399 Italy_Aosta_Valley
21.15129547 HUN_Szekely



Distance: 103.0044% / 1.03004369
Target: Creoda | ADC: 0.25x RC
98.6 Irish
1.4 Finnish_West

Distance: 116.3849% / 1.16384884
Target: CreodaMum | ADC: 0.25x RC
88.7 English_North
5.5 Hungarians
5.3 Bavarian_German
0.5 Pulliyar

Distance: 142.9699% / 1.42969858
Target: CreodaDad | ADC: 0.25x RC
89.5 Irish
10.5 Finnish_West

[Jana]

K13 is missing Belgian (Flemish/Walloon) and Icelandic averages, would be nice to have them. Also Latvian average is very distinct from other NE Europeans, idk why.
Estonians for example end up closer to Poles/Belarusians than to Latvians, doesn't make sense.

[Jana]

double

[Graham]

There is a slight theme. The North Sea component in K15 probably pushes things more to the East. Where K13 has Atlantic and North Sea lumped together I suppose. I could not tell you what is better. But both are similar to G25


K13


Distance: 360.5743% / 3.60574303
Target: Graham
91.4 West_Scottish
8.6 Norway_South_Central


Distance to: Graham
3.65224588 West_Scottish
4.48665800 Irish_Munster
4.51401152 Scottish
4.62000000 Orcadian
4.65504028 Irish
4.84127049 Irish_Leinster
4.86210860 Irish_Connacht
4.98932861 Irish_Ulster
5.36779284 English_North
5.98069394 English

K15


Distance: 423.8518% / 4.23851784
Target: Graham
71.5 Orcadian
28.5 West_Norwegian



Distance to: Graham
4.74248880 Orcadian
6.53098767 Irish_Connacht
6.82381125 West_Norwegian
6.89552754 West_Scottish
7.11945223 Dutch_North
7.29240701 Scottish
7.38495768 Irish_Munster
7.42696439 Irish
7.53200505 Irish_Leinster
7.71799197 English_North


G25


Distance: 1.7688% / 0.01768846
Target: Graham_scaled
45.2 English_Cornwall
28.7 Norwegian
19.6 Scottish
3.7 Shetlandic
2.5 French_Paris
0.3 Papuan



Distance to: Graham_scaled
0.01854313 Scottish
0.02004765 English_Cornwall
0.02006606 Irish
0.02022898 Welsh
0.02058113 English
0.02155676 Dutch
0.02159859 Orcadian
0.02218018 Shetlandic
0.02348278 Norwegian
0.02512893 French_Brittany

[Thracian]

I removed all Balkan_Turk samples + Balkan Roma, because there are 2 Roma samples. The fit is worse for me. For Mortimer is the best calculator ever with this run. He scored exactly his known ancestry(documented). But as you see even Thracian who is a Balkan Turk scored Romani. I just think these samples are not good for us to fit our ancestry.

Distance: 204.4986% / 2.04498621
Target: Mortimer | ADC: 0.25x RC
56.8 Romani
22.1 Vlach_North-Macedonia
14.4 Romania_Oltenia
3.5 Pomak_Kavala
3.2 IT_Aosta_Valley

Distance: 345.0657% / 3.45065662
Target: Impaler | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.7 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
19.9 Greek_Northern-Thrace
19.0 FRA_Provence
8.3 Turkmen
4.6 Austroasiatic_Ho
2.6 Romani
2.2 Ashkenazi
0.7 Yoruban

Distance: 107.5214% / 1.07521442
Target: Thracian | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.9 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
40.5 Greek_Istanbul
13.2 Romani
3.0 Dolgan
1.4 Tadjik

Mine is very clear, actually. I do not have Roma matches including FTDNA, 23andMe, Myheritage and Gedmatch. I most likely score them because of my extra Iranic admixture, in contrast to Roma, I have many Kurdish and Iranian matches.

None of my ancestors lived in Central Macedonia and Greek Istanbul is a not representative sample due to 1/8 exotic admixture.


Distance: 196.6555% / 1.96655464
Target: Greek_Istanbul | ADC: 0.25x
46.9 Greek_Ionia
17.3 Greek_West
14.2 Lezgin
13.5 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
8.1 Greek_Northern-Thrace


It pulls my Turkic heritage lower, my score without Istanbul and some other Greek samples such as Macedonia_Thrace,


Distance: 181.0803% / 1.81080275
Target: Thracian(balkan_turk) | ADC: 0.25x
42.5 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
27.9 Greek_West_Macedonia
11.3 Turkmen
9.4 Pomak_Drama
6.6 Romani
1.7 Turk_Central_West
0.5 Evens
0.1 Dolgan


The same goes for Pomak samples.


Distance: 160.2507% / 1.60250673
Target: Pomak_Drama | ADC: 0.25x
74.2 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
14.9 Bulgaria_Northcentral
6.4 Iranian
2.7 Erzya
1.6 Yemenite_Jewish
0.2 Greek_Northern-Thrace

This is what I get without Pomaks,


Distance: 267.4165% / 2.67416488
Target: Thracian(balkan_turk) | ADC: 0.25x
55.0 Bulgaria_Northeastern
16.0 Turkmen
13.2 IT_Basilicata
10.5 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
3.7 Romani
0.8 Yemenite_Jewish
0.5 North_German
0.3 Saudi


And without Roma+Gypsy,


Distance: 270.0063% / 2.70006273
Target: Thracian(balkan_turk) | ADC: 0.25x
44.8 Bulgaria_Northeastern
21.6 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
13.4 IT_Lucania
12.5 Turkmen
5.6 Tadjik
1.4 Ashkenazi
0.7 Yemenite_Jewish


It_Lucania is a proxy for Greek_like ancestry or maybe Balkan native, so I also removed it,


Distance: 269.2779% / 2.69277894
Target: Thracian(balkan_turk) | ADC: 0.25x
32.9 Bulgaria_Northeastern
22.1 Greek_West_Macedonia
20.7 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
13.7 Turkmen
4.4 Tadjik
2.5 Ashkenazi
1.8 North_German
1.1 Yemenite_Jewish
0.8 Parsi_India

That makes a bit sense.

Vlach_NMH is my directly match, and he is from exactly the same city with my ancestors. I do have 1/4 ancestry from there -Gevgelija-. I am southern shifted for a Turk from Bulgaria and I also have dozens of Greek matches, more than even Bulgarian matches.

I also shared many models with you and I didn't score SA. You should focus on limited models depend on the your known ancestry and all possible other ethnicities in Romania and around Romania, this is the best way for modeling yourself.

[J. Ketch]

New Welsh K13 average based on 56 references


Welsh,50.73,23.16,13.73,6.18,2.84,0.53,0.97,0.13,0 .32,0.58,0.4,0.25,0.12



Distance to: Welsh_new
1.16777566 English_North
1.41894327 English
1.43446854 English_Southwest
1.80471604 Irish_Leinster
1.81389085 English_Midlands
2.03091113 Scottish
2.13351822 English_Southeast
2.31540493 Orcadian
2.75708179 Irish
2.96179000 Irish_Munster
3.15515451 West_Scottish
3.34666999 Irish_Connacht
3.46518398 FRA_Armorica
3.49220561 Irish_Ulster
3.58647459 Welsh
3.87295753 Dutch
3.91019181 Dutch_Central
4.65565248 Dutch_North
5.88797079 Dutch_South
6.72390512 Denmark
6.72961366 North_German
6.83583938 Norwegian
7.33027967 Norway_South_Central
7.48069515 Sweden_Götaland
7.87005718 German_West



Distance to: Welsh_current
3.71674589 Irish_Leinster
4.06948400 Irish_Ulster
4.11036495 Irish
4.24816431 English_Southwest
4.28102791 Irish_Munster
4.52616836 Scottish
4.54434814 English_North
4.64493272 Irish_Connacht
4.68580836 English
4.76270931 West_Scottish
4.91204642 English_Midlands
5.00208956 FRA_Armorica
5.02526616 Orcadian
5.09469332 English_Southeast
6.80593858 Dutch
6.85386023 Dutch_Central
7.45238888 Dutch_North
7.90129103 Dutch_South
8.97354445 Norwegian
9.04070241 Denmark
9.41244389 North_German
9.61026534 Norway_South_Central
9.71227059 Sweden_Götaland
9.92036290 German_West
11.09486368 Sweden_Svealand_West


K15 (one duplicate reference removed from the 57 I had)

Welsh,36.46,28.89,9.84,8.67,9.27,4.12,0.71,0.37,0. 60,0.06,0.14,0.32,0.22,0.2,0.08

[Dunai]

New Welsh K13 average based on 56 references


Welsh,50.73,23.16,13.73,6.18,2.84,0.53,0.97,0.13,0 .32,0.58,0.4,0.25,0.12



Distance to: Welsh_new
1.16777566 English_North
1.41894327 English
1.43446854 English_Southwest
1.80471604 Irish_Leinster
1.81389085 English_Midlands
2.03091113 Scottish
2.13351822 English_Southeast
2.31540493 Orcadian
2.75708179 Irish
2.96179000 Irish_Munster
3.15515451 West_Scottish
3.34666999 Irish_Connacht
3.46518398 FRA_Armorica
3.49220561 Irish_Ulster
3.58647459 Welsh
3.87295753 Dutch
3.91019181 Dutch_Central
4.65565248 Dutch_North
5.88797079 Dutch_South
6.72390512 Denmark
6.72961366 North_German
6.83583938 Norwegian
7.33027967 Norway_South_Central
7.48069515 Sweden_Götaland
7.87005718 German_West



Distance to: Welsh_current
3.71674589 Irish_Leinster
4.06948400 Irish_Ulster
4.11036495 Irish
4.24816431 English_Southwest
4.28102791 Irish_Munster
4.52616836 Scottish
4.54434814 English_North
4.64493272 Irish_Connacht
4.68580836 English
4.76270931 West_Scottish
4.91204642 English_Midlands
5.00208956 FRA_Armorica
5.02526616 Orcadian
5.09469332 English_Southeast
6.80593858 Dutch
6.85386023 Dutch_Central
7.45238888 Dutch_North
7.90129103 Dutch_South
8.97354445 Norwegian
9.04070241 Denmark
9.41244389 North_German
9.61026534 Norway_South_Central
9.71227059 Sweden_Götaland
9.92036290 German_West
11.09486368 Sweden_Svealand_West


K15 (one duplicate reference removed from the 57 I had)

Welsh,36.46,28.89,9.84,8.67,9.27,4.12,0.71,0.37,0. 60,0.06,0.14,0.32,0.22,0.2,0.08

This just proves how incredibly mixed with each other are all the different populations of the British Isles, very-very low distances between them.

[J. Ketch]

This just proves how incredibly mixed with each other are all the different populations of the British Isles, very-very low distances between them.
Yes, there is great homogeneity relative to other countries/regions. Which makes it more important to get the values fairly precisely right.

[Leto]

Czech for Dodecad K12b (n = 15)


Czech,4.73,0.47,0.39,0.14,29.73,49.78,0.54,0.03,1. 73,0.06,12.31,0.07


Distance: 1.8414% / 1.84144126
Target: Czech | ADC: 1x RC
76.0 Slovak
24.0 Dutch_Central

I think this looks fair enough. I removed German because it might not be Western German only.

[J. Ketch]

Made a new weighted Irish average from these averages:

Leinster - x3 (half of the population is in Leinster)
Munster, Ulster, Connacht - x2
Mixed Irish (33) - x1
Irish Gedmatch average - x1

K13


Irish,52.51,23.03,12.53,6.77,1.44,0.49,1.34,0.17,0 .22,0.83,0.30,0.15,0.13




Distance to: Irish_new
0.17320508 Irish_current
0.46957428 Irish_Munster
0.90515192 Irish_Connacht
0.97236824 Irish_Leinster
1.06122571 Irish_Ulster
1.35273796 Scottish
1.55521703 West_Scottish
2.67695723 Welsh_new
2.93690313 Orcadian
3.13515550 English_North
3.86047924 English
3.91550763 English_Southwest
4.03909643 Welsh_current
4.33888234 English_Midlands
4.60501900 English_Southeast
5.20886744 Dutch_Central
5.47245831 Dutch_North
5.58291143 Dutch
5.98168872 FRA_Armorica
6.51479854 Norwegian
6.71257030 Denmark
7.15978352 Norway_South_Central
7.43937497 Sweden_Götaland
7.78343112 North_German
8.40699114 Dutch_South


K15


Irish,36.87,30.42,9.62,8.75,7.65,4.12,0.25,0.30,0. 92,0.09,0.08,0.53,0.15,0.08,0.07




Distance to: Irish_new
0.26944387 Irish_current
0.60967204 Irish_Leinster
0.65833122 Irish_Munster
0.76052613 Irish_Ulster
0.77948701 Scottish
1.18465185 Irish_Connacht
1.97952014 West_Scottish
2.36116497 Welsh
2.72132321 English_North
3.18006289 English
3.32404874 English_Southwest
3.45337516 Orcadian
3.58637700 English_Midlands
3.71749916 English_Southeast
4.61871194 Dutch_Central
5.31419796 Dutch
5.34132942 FRA_Armorica
6.92096092 North_German
7.04841826 Danish
7.15108383 Dutch_North
7.75377327 Dutch_South
8.01129203 Belgium
8.70236749 Norway
9.10857288 Norwegian
9.14295904 Swedish


That's the British Isles basically set now, I'm fairly satisfied with it. Scotland could do with a few regional updates, and some others with a few more kits, but overall it looks solid, and matches up well with population studies and history.

[Graham]

Made a new weighted Irish average from these averages:

That's the British Isles basically set now, I'm fairly satisfied with it. Scotland could do with a few regional updates, and some others with a few more kits, but overall it looks solid, and matches up well with population studies and history.

Weighted average. This is good and many countries should be weighted. :)

[Graham]

Likely Irish Gael.


Distance to: Ireland_SSG12_VikingAge_VK545
2.67540651 Irish_Connacht
2.99991667 Irish
3.13995223 Irish_Ulster
3.18251473 Irish_Munster
3.25508832 Irish_Leinster
3.54933797 Scottish
4.23358005 West_Scottish
4.35639759 Welsh
4.76582627 English_North
4.86023662 Orcadian


Target: Ireland_SSG12_VikingAge_VK545
76.2 Irish_Connacht
20.1 Irish_Ulster
1.7 Kalash
1.1 Mbuti_Pygmy
0.4 Dargin
0.2 Karitiana
0.2 Sudanese
0.1 Ethiopian_Anuak

[Lucas]

Recent updates are added again.

[Ion Basescul]

Recent updates are added again.

I saw that someone's added my Moldova_Jewish average to K13. Might as well add the rest of them too.



Moldova_Ukrainian,26.96,42.56,11.24,6.26,7.97,0.53 ,0.82,0.51,1.35,0.67,0.27,0.50,0.37
Moldova_Roma,11.21,10.37,12.59,15.94,18.36,2.33,24 .59,0.67,1.99,0.11,0.99,0.85,0.00

[Leto]

I saw that someone's added my Moldova_Jewish average to K13. Might as well add the rest of them too.



Moldova_Ukrainian,26.96,42.56,11.24,6.26,7.97,0.53 ,0.82,0.51,1.35,0.67,0.27,0.50,0.37
Moldova_Roma,11.21,10.37,12.59,15.94,18.36,2.33,24 .59,0.67,1.99,0.11,0.99,0.85,0.00

But the Roma sample size is too low, isn't it?

[Leto]

This one for Eurogenes K13 by Lemminkäinen is quite good


Russian_Kostroma,26.19,48.54,6.21,5.35,3.19,0.39,1 .05,0.69,6.37,1.16,0.52,0.19,0.16

[Leto]

Czech for Dodecad K12b (n = 15)


Czech,4.73,0.47,0.39,0.14,29.73,49.78,0.54,0.03,1. 73,0.06,12.31,0.07


Distance: 1.8414% / 1.84144126
Target: Czech | ADC: 1x RC
76.0 Slovak
24.0 Dutch_Central

I think this looks fair enough. I removed German because it might not be Western German only.
Before Lucas has added it, I'm posting an upgraded average (+10 samples, courtesy of vbnetkhio)


Czech,5.06,0.50,0.39,0.21,29.22,49.34,0.57,0.03,1. 98,0.06,12.58,0.07

Distance: 1.1508% / 1.15075208
Target: Czech | ADC: 0.5x RC
69.7 Slovak
20.1 Dutch_Central
10.2 Slovenian

- - -

Albanian for Dodecad (n = 10, again courtesy of vbnet)


Albanian,4.88,0.29,1.26,0.06,28.96,23.97,0.21,0,8. 54,0.29,31.43,0.12

Albanian_North should be deleted, it's based on four samples only (I know the source).

[Lucas]

Before Lucas has added it, I'm posting an upgraded average (+10 samples, courtesy of vbnetkhio)


Czech,5.06,0.50,0.39,0.21,29.22,49.34,0.57,0.03,1. 98,0.06,12.58,0.07

Distance: 1.1508% / 1.15075208
Target: Czech | ADC: 0.5x RC
69.7 Slovak
20.1 Dutch_Central
10.2 Slovenian

- - -

Albanian for Dodecad (n = 10, again courtesy of vbnet)


Albanian,4.88,0.29,1.26,0.06,28.96,23.97,0.21,0,8. 54,0.29,31.43,0.12

Albanian_North should be deleted, it's based on four samples only (I know the source).

added

[Leto]

added
Thanks. This little thing too (it was in a message of mine)


Danish,8.05,0.21,0.12,0.12,35.84,49.66,0.34,0.02,0 .25,0.02,5.38,0

[Lucas]

Thanks. This little thing too (it was in a message of mine)


Danish,8.05,0.21,0.12,0.12,35.84,49.66,0.34,0.02,0 .25,0.02,5.38,0


done

[vbnetkhio]

done

could you remove all Bosniak averages except Sarajevo and Sandzak, and rename "Bosniak_Sarajevo" to just "Bosniak".

[Jana]

could you remove all Bosniak averages except Sarajevo and Sandzak, and rename "Bosniak_Sarajevo" to just "Bosniak".

Hey, is anything wrong with Bosniak averages you made?

[vbnetkhio]

Hey, is anything wrong with Bosniak averages you made?

yes. too little samples, and some were placed there based on incomplete family trees.

[Jana]

yes. too little samples, and some were placed there based on incomplete family trees.

Than removing them makes sense.

[Lucas]

could you remove all Bosniak averages except Sarajevo and Sandzak, and rename "Bosniak_Sarajevo" to just "Bosniak".

OK

[vbnetkhio]

OK

could you replace the Albanian averages with these:


Albanian_Gheg,21.88,18.15,21.86,11.23,22.94,2.61,0 .19,0.24,0.26,0.19,0.26,0.16,0.02
Albanian_Tosk,21.32,16.38,21.46,10.93,25.63,2.55,0 .09,0.34,0.31,0.46,0.14,0.16,0.22
Albanian,21.69,17.54,21.72,11.13,23.86,2.59,0.16,0 .28,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.16,0.09

[Leto]

could you replace the Albanian averages with these:


Albanian_Gheg,21.88,18.15,21.86,11.23,22.94,2.61,0 .19,0.24,0.26,0.19,0.26,0.16,0.02
Albanian_Tosk,21.32,16.38,21.46,10.93,25.63,2.55,0 .09,0.34,0.31,0.46,0.14,0.16,0.22
Albanian,21.69,17.54,21.72,11.13,23.86,2.59,0.16,0 .28,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.16,0.09

The number of Pomak and Macedonian averages should be reduced as well. 10 references for a nation of 1.2 million (Pomaks are even fewer than that) is clearly too much.

[Abriekman]

The number of Pomak and Macedonian averages should be reduced as well. 10 references for a nation of 1.2 million (Pomaks are even fewer than that) is clearly too much.

Do Pomaks differ from Bulgarians genetically?

[Lucas]

The number of Pomak and Macedonian averages should be reduced as well. 10 references for a nation of 1.2 million (Pomaks are even fewer than that) is clearly too much.

For me yes. Maybe northern and southern Pomaks and southern and northern Macedonians.

On PCA left should on the right ofc.

https://i.imgur.com/fhEIuWz.png

[J. Ketch]

Afrikaner K13 average from 25 kits


Afrikaner,44.03,22.73,14.01,5.12,6.22,0.79,2.40,0. 92,0.44,0.50,0.58,0.44,1.76

Distance to: Afrikaner
3.03654409 Dutch_South
3.38570524 German_West
5.10584959 FRA_Belgica
5.55844403 FRA_Armorica
5.57895151 German
6.00762016 English_Southeast
6.18237010 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.21734670 Dutch
6.30734492 FRA_Alsace
6.45253439 English_Midlands
6.83021230 English
7.05302772 Dutch_Central
7.06184820 Swiss_German2
7.12157988 English_Southwest
7.41729061 Swiss_German
7.56668355 North_German
7.60935608 English_North
7.95089932 Welsh
8.03496733 Dutch_North
8.80783174 Orcadian
9.23218826 FRA_Central
9.30069890 Scottish
9.38126857 Irish_Leinster
10.22323334 Irish
10.50131420 Irish_Munster

Distance: 0.6708% / 0.67079657
Target: Afrikaner | ADC: 0.25x RC
72.8 Dutch_South
21.9 German_West
2.2 Austroasiatic_Ho
1.8 Pennsylvania_Dutch
1.3 Yoruban

[Lucas]

could you replace the Albanian averages with these:


Albanian_Gheg,21.88,18.15,21.86,11.23,22.94,2.61,0 .19,0.24,0.26,0.19,0.26,0.16,0.02
Albanian_Tosk,21.32,16.38,21.46,10.93,25.63,2.55,0 .09,0.34,0.31,0.46,0.14,0.16,0.22
Albanian,21.69,17.54,21.72,11.13,23.86,2.59,0.16,0 .28,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.16,0.09


done

[Leto]

Do Pomaks differ from Bulgarians genetically?
Perhaps there are some slight differences. Like distant Turkish or something like that.

[catgeorge]

Well I get crazy high Pomak on K13

Distance: 0.5259% / 0.52593663
Target: Sarakatsani
16.6 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
16.2 Greek_West
13.5 IT_Marche
11.3 Greek_Istanbul
10.9 Greek_Thessaly
9.5 Greek_Peloponnese
8.4 IT_Aosta_Valley
6.7 Swiss_Italian
5.6 Greek_West_Macedonia

[Jana]

Perhaps there are some slight differences. Like distant Turkish or something like that.

very similar, Pomaks have no Turkish.

Distance: 1.0041% / 1.00414176
Target: Bulgarian

57.5 Vlach
41.4 Slavic
1.1 Alan

Distance: 2.7816% / 2.78157197
Target: Pomak

58.4 Vlach
37.0 Slavic
4.6 Alan

[Kyp]

For Dodecadk12b:

n=3

Tsakhur_Azerbaijan,23.03,2.16,0,0,5.39,18.84,0.91, 0,5.47,2.22,41.97,0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakhur_people

[Leto]

The Eurogenes "classic" Estonian_Polish (+ 4 more samples from a later study, 15 in total) for Dodecad K12b


Estonian_Polish,4.09,1.78,0,0.37,21.77,59.19,0.48, 0,0.96,0.44,10.88,0

Distance to: Estonian_Polish
1.05451411 Russian_Smolensk
1.69088734 Belorussian
2.01727539 Southwest_Russian
2.31793011 Russian_Tver
2.51590938 PL_Mazovia
3.00074991 Russian_Kursk
3.03394133 Russian_Oryol
3.29893922 Russian_Voronezh
4.32641884 Russian_Ryazan
4.41964931 Russian_Pskov
4.64541710 Polish_mixed
4.70874718 Ukrainian
5.89124775 PL_Warmia-Masuria
6.33490331 Russian_Kostroma
7.13843120 Estonian
7.58333040 Sorb_Lusatia
8.20147548 Russian_North_Dvina
8.21881378 Lithuanian
10.03578597 Russian_Ural
10.58129482 Slovak

Distance: 0.4149% / 0.41491652
Target: Estonian_Polish | ADC: 0.25x RC
69.8 Russian_Smolensk
25.0 Russian_Tver
2.9 Finnish_West
2.3 Swedish

Distance: 0.4883% / 0.48832030
Target: Estonian_Polish | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.7 Russian_Smolensk
14.3 Russian_Tver
5.0 Finnish_West

[Leto]

Afrikaner K13 average from 25 kits

Kinda low non-Caucasoid, maybe except for the South Asian. The actual "Afrikan" part is minimal.

[J. Ketch]

Kinda low non-Caucasoid, maybe except for the South Asian. The actual "Afrikan" part is minimal.
Not all Afrikaners have SSA it seems, but most do. They're not entirely descended from the early bottleneck population of the 1600s that mixed with Blacks/Indians, they also have later European input from the 1700s and since.

[Abriekman]

Does somebody have samples from Podolia region? Just any, Polish or Ukrainian

[Lucas]

The Eurogenes "classic" Estonian_Polish (+ 4 more samples from a later study, 15 in total) for Dodecad K12b


Estonian_Polish,4.09,1.78,0,0.37,21.77,59.19,0.48, 0,0.96,0.44,10.88,0

Distance to: Estonian_Polish
1.05451411 Russian_Smolensk
1.69088734 Belorussian
2.01727539 Southwest_Russian
2.31793011 Russian_Tver
2.51590938 PL_Mazovia
3.00074991 Russian_Kursk
3.03394133 Russian_Oryol
3.29893922 Russian_Voronezh
4.32641884 Russian_Ryazan
4.41964931 Russian_Pskov
4.64541710 Polish_mixed
4.70874718 Ukrainian
5.89124775 PL_Warmia-Masuria
6.33490331 Russian_Kostroma
7.13843120 Estonian
7.58333040 Sorb_Lusatia
8.20147548 Russian_North_Dvina
8.21881378 Lithuanian
10.03578597 Russian_Ural
10.58129482 Slovak

Distance: 0.4149% / 0.41491652
Target: Estonian_Polish | ADC: 0.25x RC
69.8 Russian_Smolensk
25.0 Russian_Tver
2.9 Finnish_West
2.3 Swedish

Distance: 0.4883% / 0.48832030
Target: Estonian_Polish | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.7 Russian_Smolensk
14.3 Russian_Tver
5.0 Finnish_West


I don't like this reference and don't want to add. It is based on just few mixed Poles from Estonia, probably settled there in Soviet times only and mixed with locals. Not a proper ref at all.

[Lucas]

For Dodecadk12b:

n=3

Tsakhur_Azerbaijan,23.03,2.16,0,0,5.39,18.84,0.91, 0,5.47,2.22,41.97,0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakhur_people

added

[Leto]

I don't like this reference and don't want to add. It is based on just few mixed Poles from Estonia, probably settled there in Soviet times only and mixed with locals. Not a proper ref at all.
Well, you may not want to add it but it's very close to my father, the distance is like 1.53. Out of 15 samples one is 7+ percent Siberian, another one is 4+ percent, the rest are 0-2%.

[Leto]

Does somebody have samples from Podolia region? Just any, Polish or Ukrainian
Khmelnitsky and Vinnitsa? Don't remember any confirmed full kits from there.

[Lucas]

Well, you may not want to add it but it's very close to my father, the distance is like 1.53. Out of 15 samples one is 7+ percent Siberian, another one is 4+ percent, the rest are 0-2%.

But it not autochtonous Polish community. Poles live SE Latvia since centuries and I'm sure they are just like Lithuania Poles, without any significant Siberian.
No one ever heard about long-established Polish minority in Estonia. Some workers arrived in inter-war period from Poland. Then in Soviet times some miners from former Kresy arrived too. But they aren't native minority and genetic population in valid sense. And it is just about 1500-2000 people dispersed all over the country.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacy_w_Estonii

It is like creating Russian reference from Russians living in Poland. https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosjanie_w_Polsce But in such case it would be even valid in case of Starover community from Augustów. No such thing in Estonia for Poles.

[Leto]

But it not autochtonous Polish community. Poles live SE Latvia since centuries and I'm sure they are just like Lithuania Poles, without any significant Siberian.
No one ever heard about long-established Polish minority in Estonia. Some workers arrfived in inter-war period from Poland. Then in Soviet times some miners from former Kresy arrvied too. But they aren't native minority and genetic population in valid sense. And it is just about 2000 people dispersed all over country.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacy_w_Estonii
I agree, Dawid (being Polish himself) should have added LT or LV Polish instead.

Since you're here, please delete Cossack_Kuban from K13. 2 samples is a joke. We've discussed it recently in another thread, it's pretty much crap IMO.

[Lucas]

I agree, Dawid (being Polish himself) should have added LT or LV Polish instead.

Since you're here, please delete Cossack_Kuban from K13. 2 samples is a joke. We've discussed it recently in another thread, it's pretty much crap IMO.

yes it is, ok

[Leto]

It is like creating Russian reference from Russians living in Poland. https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosjanie_w_Polsce But in such case it would be even valid in case of Starover community from Augustów. No such thing in Estonia for Poles.
Well, even Russians in Estonia or Latvia are mostly (not all) recent migrants and their children (post WW2). My uncle lives in Estonia for ex, his son was even born there (mother is Russian).

[Abriekman]

Khmelnitsky and Vinnitsa? Don't remember any confirmed full kits from there.

Ok, maybe from Lublin or Volhynia do you have some?

[Lucas]

Added to Dodecad K12b

Someone posted on FB.


I made averages from what i have found at Gedmatch .Verified by the sample owners.



Greek_Fournoi,7.48,0,3.19,0,23.67,13.76,0.26,0,13. 04,0.99,37.59,0
Greek_Icaria,5.33,0.76,1.77,0.25,25.46,10.78,0.77, 0,13.57,0.11,41.15,0.04
Greek_Lemnos,8.61,0.03,2.25,0,24.94,17.12,0.93,0.0 9,11.15,0.91,34.30,0
Greek_Rhodes,8.41,0.16,2.72,0.36,23.32,9.44,0.16,0 .12,14.41,0.1,40.77,0

[Lucas]

Afrikaner K13 average from 25 kits


Afrikaner,44.03,22.73,14.01,5.12,6.22,0.79,2.40,0. 92,0.44,0.50,0.58,0.44,1.76

Distance to: Afrikaner
3.03654409 Dutch_South
3.38570524 German_West
5.10584959 FRA_Belgica
5.55844403 FRA_Armorica
5.57895151 German
6.00762016 English_Southeast
6.18237010 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.21734670 Dutch
6.30734492 FRA_Alsace
6.45253439 English_Midlands
6.83021230 English
7.05302772 Dutch_Central
7.06184820 Swiss_German2
7.12157988 English_Southwest
7.41729061 Swiss_German
7.56668355 North_German
7.60935608 English_North
7.95089932 Welsh
8.03496733 Dutch_North
8.80783174 Orcadian
9.23218826 FRA_Central
9.30069890 Scottish
9.38126857 Irish_Leinster
10.22323334 Irish
10.50131420 Irish_Munster

Distance: 0.6708% / 0.67079657
Target: Afrikaner | ADC: 0.25x RC
72.8 Dutch_South
21.9 German_West
2.2 Austroasiatic_Ho
1.8 Pennsylvania_Dutch
1.3 Yoruban

added

[Kaazi]

added

Hi @Lucas

Please add these Nepalese averages of various castes and ethnicities in the Harappaworld since those originally ran by Zack has mixed various ethnicities and named them Nepalese-a,b,c which is quite misleading.

Nepali_Khas_Brahmin 35 kits
Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya 9 kits
Nepali_Newar_Shrestha 5 kits
Nepali_Gurung 3 kits
Nepali_Kirant_Rai 3 kits



For Harappaworld

Nepali_Khas_Brahmin,34.49,33.72,8.17,12.58,0.65,1. 42,4.04,0.56,1.26,0.96,1.64,0.32,0.09,0.04,0.01,0. 04
Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya,32.93,26.60,5.03,8.17,1.50,3 .51,18.69,0.60,1.02,0.73,0.77,0.37,0.03,0.00,0.02, 0.01
Nepali_Newar_Shrestha,28.60,16.96,1.45,2.88,2.58,5 .73,37.85,1.19,0.90,0.25,1.07,0.20,0.02,0.00,0.32, 0.00
Nepali_Gurung,14.41,3.31,0.26,0.06,5.05,9.48,63.37 ,1.81,0.63,1.05,0.23,0.00,0.26,0.08,0.00,0.01
Nepali_Kirant_Rai,8.65,0.30,0.18,0.00,4.53,10.20,7 3.25,1.14,0.96,0.11,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.34,0.32

[Amon]

For Dodecad k12b



Tibetan,1.97,12.01,0.21,14.82,0,0.6,6.7,0.16,0.03, 62.8,0,0.7
Lipka_Tatar,9.16,10.71,0.13,1.71,14.76,31.86,1.03, 0,2.18,12.9,15.43,0.12

[Amon]

For Dodecad k12b



Tibetan,1.97,12.01,0.21,14.82,0,0.6,6.7,0.16,0.03, 62.8,0,0.7
Lipka_Tatar,9.16,10.71,0.13,1.71,14.76,31.86,1.03, 0,2.18,12.9,15.43,0.12

[Lucas]

Hi @Lucas

Please add these Nepalese averages of various castes and ethnicities in the Harappaworld since those originally ran by Zack has mixed various ethnicities and named them Nepalese-a,b,c which is quite misleading.

Nepali_Khas_Brahmin 35 kits
Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya 9 kits
Nepali_Newar_Shrestha 5 kits
Nepali_Gurung 3 kits
Nepali_Kirant_Rai 3 kits



For Harappaworld

Nepali_Khas_Brahmin,34.49,33.72,8.17,12.58,0.65,1. 42,4.04,0.56,1.26,0.96,1.64,0.32,0.09,0.04,0.01,0. 04
Nepali_Khas_Kshatriya,32.93,26.60,5.03,8.17,1.50,3 .51,18.69,0.60,1.02,0.73,0.77,0.37,0.03,0.00,0.02, 0.01
Nepali_Newar_Shrestha,28.60,16.96,1.45,2.88,2.58,5 .73,37.85,1.19,0.90,0.25,1.07,0.20,0.02,0.00,0.32, 0.00
Nepali_Gurung,14.41,3.31,0.26,0.06,5.05,9.48,63.37 ,1.81,0.63,1.05,0.23,0.00,0.26,0.08,0.00,0.01
Nepali_Kirant_Rai,8.65,0.30,0.18,0.00,4.53,10.20,7 3.25,1.14,0.96,0.11,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.34,0.32

Ok removed a, b, c and added this.

[Leto]

For Eurogenes K13


Pamiri_Tajikistan,13.48,15.13,0,37.53,3.65,0.14,19 .84,1.37,4.92,3.14,0.23,0.06,0.53

[Leto]

Ok, maybe from Lublin or Volhynia do you have some?
Lublin is Poland, I've never seen any. As for Volhynia, only a few academic ones. I mean there are plenty of Polish and Ukrainian users on GEDmatch but whether they are specifically from those places is unknown.

[Jana]

We have new Croatian K13 averages! Lucas please replace old one with them :) (they are made by Moro with help of other regulars from south Slavic genetic threads)


Croat_South,26.36,31.83,15.92,8.38,13.60,1.47,0.50 ,0.28,0.56,0.47,0.37,0.12,0.11
Croat_West,28.53,31.60,15.24,7.61,13.31,1.38,0.61, 0.38,0.36,0.38,0.40,0.13,0.07
Croat_East,26.84,34.60,14.13,8.26,12.31,1.43,0.22, 0.12,1.08,0.68,0.30,0.01,0.01
Croat_North,30.06,34.35,14.42,7.05,10.10,1.33,0.54 ,0.31,0.52,0.61,0.40,0.16,0.14
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10

[Lucas]

We have new Croatian K13 averages! Lucas please replace old one with them :) (they are made by Moro with help of other regulars from south Slavic genetic threads)


Croat_South,26.36,31.83,15.92,8.38,13.60,1.47,0.50 ,0.28,0.56,0.47,0.37,0.12,0.11
Croat_West,28.53,31.60,15.24,7.61,13.31,1.38,0.61, 0.38,0.36,0.38,0.40,0.13,0.07
Croat_East,26.84,34.60,14.13,8.26,12.31,1.43,0.22, 0.12,1.08,0.68,0.30,0.01,0.01
Croat_North,30.06,34.35,14.42,7.05,10.10,1.33,0.54 ,0.31,0.52,0.61,0.40,0.16,0.14
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10

OK added. What are those regions on the map?

[Jana]

OK added. What are those regions on the map?

Thanks!

It's like this. North Croat includes NW and central regions around capital Zagreb (Kajkavian speaking north and centre in short)
East is Slavonia, with it's subregions Posavina, Baranja, Srijem. West are regions of Istria, Kvarner and Gorski kotar.
South is everything south of Sava river which was also border of Roman Dalmatia and Panonnia and it includes Dalmatia, Lika and all Bosnia-Herzegovina Croats.

This is most logical division we have so far :)

https://www.croatia.eu/images/01-07/regije_en.png

You can use this map for orientation. Sava river flows along northern border of Croatia and Bosnia btw.

[Jana]

rough division for visulization. So we got these 4 + one general weighted average. :)

https://i.imgur.com/CA3TOSk.png

[MoroLP]

OK added. What are those regions on the map?

As we (Stearsolina, vbnetkhio, and me) explained at the thread "Croat K13 regional (and national) averages", it is basically a variation of a map from Mršić et al. 2012 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Croatian-regions_fig1_221889294), where Northern and Central region make "North", Eastern makes "East", Western makes "West" excluding the Lika-Senj County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika-Senj_County), which was added to the Southern plus Bosnia and Herzegovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) making "South". The county of Lika-Senj could have been added to "West" and wouldn't make a substantial difference, but alongside other regions, the "South" approximately makes the borders of old medieval Croatia which was located south of river Sava. Also, due to historical connections and migrations as well genetical proximity with other "South" regions, it's more logical to include it in the "South" instead of "West" due to only geographical reasoning.

[Kaazi]

OK added. What are those regions on the map?

Hi @Lucas,
Please remove "Brahmins_from_Uttaranchal" from Dodecad K12b and "Brahmin_Uttaranchal" from Harappaworld since both of those are based on 1 outlier sample ran by Zack. Other actual Brahmins from Uttaranchal have very different result than that average which is very high East Asian.

Two actual Uttaranchal Brahmin samples and both have diverse results.
Sundriyal
1 S-Indian 38.16
2 Baloch 33.32
3 Caucasian 8.97
4 NE-Euro 8.86
5 NE-Asian 6.64
6 Siberian 1.82
7 American 0.74
8 Mediterranean 0.57
9 Beringian 0.49
10 Papuan 0.43

Nautiyal
1 S-Indian 34.85
2 Baloch 31.57
3 NE-Asian 12.62
4 NE-Euro 7.25
5 SE-Asian 4.06
6 Caucasian 3.68
7 Beringian 2.05
8 Siberian 1.61
9 Papuan 1.12
10 Mediterranean 0.71
11 American 0.5

Also please remove "Nepali" from harappaworld which was a meaningless average of two Brahmins and 1 Chhetri.

[Dunai]

Please remove these on K13:
Latvian,26.7383333333,58.3616666667,6.41,2.7266666 667,0.7816666667,1.095,0.7733333333,0.0933333333,1 .4333333333,0.7316666667,0.3216666667,0.3283333333 ,0.22
Slovak,30.84,37.1846153846,12.9876923077,6.2976923 077,8.0007692308,1.0869230769,1.0276923077,0.39153 84615,0.5769230769,0.7338461538,0.5307692308,0.146 1538462,0.2138461538
Turk_Western_Thrace,18.13666667,18.07,14.46333333, 14.55333333,23.87,3.053333333,0.56,1.393333333,4.1 93333333,0.673333333,0.356666667,0.043333333,0.316 666667
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86333333,21.44333333,13 .87666667,13.28666667,20.28333333,2.653333333,2.03 6666667,2.72,1.99,0.863333333,0.296666667,0.196666 667,0.493333333
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.69666667,18.65666667,15.3 9,15.38333333,18.53666667,2.72,2.336666667,1.65333 3333,3.256666667,0.893333333,0.196666667,0.17,0.11

And replace them with these, as I rounded them for aesthetic reasons:
Latvian,26.74,58.36,6.41,2.73,0.78,1.1,0.77,0.09,1 .43,0.73,0.32,0.33,0.22
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21
Turk_Western_Thrace,18.14,18.07,14.46,14.55,23.87, 3.05,0.56,1.39,4.19,0.67,0.36,0.04,0.32
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86,21.44,13.88,13.29,20 .28,2.65,2.04,2.72,1.99,0.86,0.3,0.2,0.49
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.7,18.66,15.39,15.38,18.54 ,2.72,2.34,1.65,3.26,0.89,0.2,0.17,0.11

[Leto]

Please reduce the number of Macedonian and Balkan Turk averages, they shouldn't dominate the spreadsheet being small and insignificant populations. I can understand Turkey as a country of 83 million. But here we're talking about 1-2 million people only.

[Kyp]

For Dodecadk12b:


Turkmen_Iran,21.19,9.46,0.54,1.15,5.45,12.76,4.94, 0.22,6.77,11.03,26.38,0.12


Please delete the old Turkmen_Iran

[MoroLP]

Please reduce the number of Macedonian and Balkan Turk averages, they shouldn't dominate the spreadsheet being small and insignificant populations. I can understand Turkey as a country of 83 million. But here we're talking about 1-2 million people only.

Someone should make only a few averages for Macedonians (eg East, West, North, South) and Balkan Turks (eg 1 Turk_Bulgaria average instead of 4 Turk_Bulgaria averages). What about Greek averages (26, with national 27)? Any reason for such a high number? Italians due to the size of the country, individually established regions, and the population as well as regional peculiarities are fine, but what's the point of sub-regional Emilia_ovest, Emilia_est, Calabria_citra, Calabria_ultra?

It's great to keep sub-regional averages on the forum or some other spreadsheet as a piece of evidence for more detailed analysis and discussion, but on Vahaduo perhaps should only be general regional and national averages, not each island, village, city, partial region, and so on. Many of such averages are probably based on a very low number of samples which makes them biased as well.

[Jana]

Agree with posters above, some countries have way too many illogical averages. There are also two Swiss German and Swiss Italian averages for each ethicity.

[Lucas]

Please reduce the number of Macedonian and Balkan Turk averages, they shouldn't dominate the spreadsheet being small and insignificant populations. I can understand Turkey as a country of 83 million. But here we're talking about 1-2 million people only.

There were reduced already by Thracian but still too many. I think I will make reduced averages for them as no one wants.

[Leto]

Someone should make only a few averages for Macedonians (eg East, West, North, South) and Balkan Turks (eg 1 Turk_Bulgaria average instead of 4 Turk_Bulgaria averages). What about Greek averages (26, with national 27)? Any reason for such a high number? Italians due to the size of the country, individually established regions, and the population as well as regional peculiarities are fine, but what's the point of sub-regional Emilia_ovest, Emilia_est, Calabria_citra, Calabria_ultra?

It's great to keep sub-regional averages on the forum or some other spreadsheet as a piece of evidence for more detailed analysis and discussion, but on Vahaduo perhaps should only be general regional and national averages, not each island, village, city, partial region, and so on. Many of such averages are probably based on a very low number of samples which makes them biased as well.
Yep, absolutely right. What the hell does citra, ultra even mean? Calabria is Calabria, you can't cover every single town or village. There are clearly defined regions of Italy and Greece for example and that administrative division should be followed.

[Leto]

There were reduced already by Thracian but still too many. I think I will make reduced averages for them as no one wants.
North Macedonia doesn't even differ substantially by region. As Moro pointed out, one can use a separate, more detailed spreadsheet if some more specific details are needed but for general use those things are redundant.

Luke, please don't forget Pamiri_Tajikistan :)

[Dunai]

North Macedonia doesn't even differ substantially by region. As Moro pointed out, one can use a separate, more detailed spreadsheet if some more specific details are needed but for general use those things are redundant.

Luke, please don't forget Pamiri_Tajikistan :)

Basically this. I can understand that smaller countries also want to have many separate sub-divisions as they see among the larger countries, but when such sub-divisions aren't supported by visible genetic distances, than I believe it's more futile than helpful. I would even go as far as having one national average for small countries, max two regional ones and a national average.

[Jana]

Indeed Macedonians seem really homogenous genetically, I see basically no genetic difference between all these regions. Probably north and south and one general average would do.

[Leto]

Basically this. I can understand that smaller countries also want to have many separate sub-divisions as they see among the larger countries, but when such sub-divisions aren't supported by visible genetic distances, than I believe it's more futile than helpful. I would even go as far as having one national average for small countries, max two regional ones and a national average.
Correct. No matter how many obscure Italian averages have been added, tomorrow there will still be an Italian person who doesn't get a close distance either because they are an outlier or because their raw data is fucked up and low SNP. Point is you can't satisfy everyone.

[Jana]

There are also lot of Pomak averages, considering their population is only 1 million total, and half of them live in Turkey (I'd guess many adopted Turkish identity). In Balkans their numbers are very small.
Greek averages are gigantic, they also should be reduced.

[Leto]

There are also lot of Pomak averages, considering their population is only 1 million total, and half of them live in Turkey (I'd guess many adopted Turkish identity). In Balkans their numbers are very small.
Are they even a legit ethnic group? Those in Turkey are (being) Turkified and those in the homeland can pass as Bulgarian. I see no problem if an actual Pomak takes a test and comes up as Bulgarian on Gedmatch.

[Jana]

Are they even a legit ethnic group? Those in Turkey are (being) Turkified and those in the homeland can pass as Bulgarian. I see no problem if an actual Pomak takes a test and comes up as Bulgarian on Gedmatch.

They are like Bosniaks, have same origins as Christian Bulgarians but developed their own identity. It's legit IMO and should be respected. But Kaspias said many are getting Turkified indeed.
So many averages aren't needed for them because only part of total Pomak population which is small to begin with has Pomak identity and not Turkish for example.

[Kaspias]

Balkan Turks should be divided into three: Thrace, Deliorman, and Macedonia.
Pomaks should be divided into two: Greece, Bulgaria.

I can handle it next week.

[J. Ketch]

While everyone is taking the opportunity to complain, the ancient names of French regions continue to bug me autistically. FRA_Armorica should be French_Northwest, FRA_Belgica should be French_North, the other ones don't come up on my oracles so I don't care ;)

[Dunai]

Looking at the closeness of averages and given historical considerations I believe for Romania it's also plenty enough the three major historical regions: Moldavia, Transylvania+Banat, Wallachia+Dobruja.

[Jana]

While everyone is taking the opportunity to complain, the ancient names of French regions continue to bug me autistically. FRA_Armorica should be French_Northwest, FRA_Belgica should be French_North, the other ones don't come up on my oracles so I don't care ;)

They bug me too tbh. I don't like FRA, DEU etc....write full country's name. And these ancient regional names may be confusing for average Joe.

[Thracian]

Well, we Balkan Turks are not 1-2 million as Leto said but about 10 million. However, I agree with him and the rest, the spreadsheet will be better with well organized samples. We do not need too many regions.

As Kaspias mentioned, we can make 3 regions for Balkan Turks.

Not sure about Pomaks, I don't know we really need to separate them since they are closer to each others.

Vlach N. Macedonia Highlander is one of the users on TA, I am doubt he is really a Vlach. That is fine with a Vlach average or Torbeshi average.

Frankly, I do not understand picking samples from cosmopolitans. We do not even need Greek Istanbul sample, it is not even fully Greek. No Greek can be modeled as 1/8 Lezgin. the same goes for Greek Macedonia Thrace. Why we even have a Macedonia Thrace region? One Greek Macedonia - we do not need to have Central or Eastern or Western Macedonia- and one Greek Thrace are useful.


Distance: 0.8841% / 0.88405084
Target: Greek_Macedonia_Thrace | ADC: 0.25x
32.0 Greek_Central
26.0 Pomak_Komotini
23.8 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
8.1 Turk_Crete
7.7 Armenian_East
1.3 Lezgin
0.6 Turk_East_Black_Sea
0.5 Laz

Distance: 1.5368% / 1.53680807
Target: Greek_Istanbul | ADC: 0.25x
50.5 Greek_Andros_Island
18.2 Turk_Central_Macedonia
12.1 Greek_Northern-Thrace
11.4 Lezgin
6.4 Pomak_Komotini
1.4 Laz

We can have another spreadsheet if people want to have much bigger spreadsheet with more regional/individual samples. But having well organized spreadsheet will be more accurate.

[Kaspias]

Well, I found a chance to finish Balkan Turks.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338632-New-Balkan-Turk-Eurogenes-K13-Averages&p=7035909#post7035909

@Lucas

Please remove:


Turk_Western_Thrace,18.13666667,18.07,14.46333333, 14.55333333,23.87,3.053333333,0.56,1.393333333,4.1 93333333,0.673333333,0.356666667,0.043333333,0.316 666667
Turk_Eastern_Macedonia,19.61,20.485,16.035,15.235, 20.385,1.56,0.81,1.94,1.98,0.27,0.235,0.095,0.23
Turk_Central_Macedonia,19.29,19.58,17.35,12.55,26. 1,1.97,0,0.51,1.38,0.94,0,0,0.32
Turk_Bulgaria_East,19.03,11.49,14.52,19.18,23.94,3 .15,1.32,2.12,4.28,0.44,0,0.16,0.37
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86333333,21.44333333,13 .87666667,13.28666667,20.28333333,2.653333333,2.03 6666667,2.72,1.99,0.863333333,0.296666667,0.196666 667,0.493333333
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.69666667,18.65666667,15.3 9,15.38333333,18.53666667,2.72,2.336666667,1.65333 3333,3.256666667,0.893333333,0.196666667,0.17,0.11
Turk_Bulgaria_South,17.144,18.302,14.608,17.27,18. 11,3.092,0.878,3.074,5.95,0.83,0.282,0.296,0.172
Turk_Eastern_Thrace,13.92,14.66,16.81,19.56,20.22, 2.35,3.04,3.03,5.28,0.53,0.53,0.07,0
Turk_Balkan_average,18.51,18.70,15.05,15.48,20.71, 2.77,1.31,2.16,3.69,0.70,0.25,0.24,0.28
Turk_N-Macedonia,19.62,26.16,14.14,12.18,18.91,2.55,2.33, 1.13,2.05,0.67,0.04,0.21,0


and add:


Turk_Trakya,15.59,18.68,14.59,17.12,21.06,2.92,1.4 2,2.18,5.21,0.48,0.35,0.19,0.20
Turk_Deliorman,18.24,21.24,14.61,15.55,19.50,2.61, 1.05,2.57,3.74,0.41,0.51,0.17,0.15
Turk_Makedonya,19.58,18.64,16.77,13.73,23.61,2.80, 0.68,1.01,2.18,0.21,0.36,0.21,0.24

[Leto]

While everyone is taking the opportunity to complain, the ancient names of French regions continue to bug me autistically. FRA_Armorica should be French_Northwest, FRA_Belgica should be French_North, the other ones don't come up on my oracles so I don't care ;)
Peterski named them that. I agree, should be renamed. There was a description in one thread of his.

[Leto]

Well, we Balkan Turks are not 1-2 million as Leto said but about 10 million. However, I agree with him and the rest, the spreadsheet will be better with well organized samples. We do not need too many regions.

In the actual Balkan states you guys are a lot less numerous.

[Thracian]

In the actual Balkan states you guys are a lot less numerous.

Yes, you are right about the Balkans. However, majority of our population already moved to Turkey and some big cities in Eastern Thrace and Western Anatolia such as Bursa, Balikesir or Izmir are full of Balkan Turks.

[Lucas]

While everyone is taking the opportunity to complain, the ancient names of French regions continue to bug me autistically. FRA_Armorica should be French_Northwest, FRA_Belgica should be French_North, the other ones don't come up on my oracles so I don't care ;)

Yep it is anachronistic. Most people on FB don't know what regions there are:) Will be changed.

[Lucas]

Ok I made Macedonia north and south. I also left only Vlach and Torbeshi average.

[Dr_Maul]

What are those new samples with "_B" in G25? I saw Iranian_B

[Lucas]

What are those new samples with "_B" in G25? I saw Iranian_B

Recently unofficially converted by Davidski from some last paper on West Asia. There aren't in official sheet on his blog but were posted on Anthrogenica.
I added it on the end of every modern sheet for easier finding.

[Lucas]

If Creoda wants to add more German regions better to make for whole former West Germany north-west, central-west, south-west and south-east. If we follow the rule to not make too many small regions in K13 updated sheet.

[Ion Basescul]

Looking at the closeness of averages and given historical considerations I believe for Romania it's also plenty enough the three major historical regions: Moldavia, Transylvania+Banat, Wallachia+Dobruja.

No, it's not. Each one of them is quite different, and Romania is almost a 20m country. The one that could be removed perhaps is Romania_Wallachia, since it's the average of Muntenia and Oltenia.

[Leto]

Yep it is anachronistic. Most people on FB don't know what regions there are:) Will be changed.
Here is the map

Feel free to test my regional French K13 and K15 averages. This is a continuation of:
(BTW, I intend to supplement with more samples, but they should already be good)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?322456-Peterski-s-analysis-of-French-genetic-clusters

Use with Vahaduo - 98857

Eurogenes K13:


FRA_Central,42.40,18.28,20.55,4.81,9.80,1.59,0.49, 0.26,0.36,0.46,0.37,0.38,0.24
FRA_Alsace,40.65,22.72,16.81,6.48,9.58,1.60,0.39,0 .47,0.25,0.36,0.27,0.16,0.26
FRA_Armorica,48.53,22.11,15.45,5.52,4.38,1.00,1.19 ,0.25,0.31,0.59,0.29,0.22,0.17
FRA_Belgica,43.27,20.59,17.19,6.01,8.41,1.49,0.81, 0.36,0.38,0.48,0.30,0.27,0.43
FRA_Septimania,41.77,14.33,26.39,2.70,10.79,1.43,0 .55,0.18,0.26,0.58,0.53,0.33,0.17
FRA_Provence,35.19,14.10,22.05,6.40,17.59,2.34,0.3 6,0.26,0.26,0.40,0.37,0.42,0.24
FRA_Aquitania,48.61,8.24,32.74,0.95,5.49,1.52,0.92 ,0.35,0.26,0.27,0.31,0.20,0.14

Eurogenes K15:


FRA_Central,27.38,27.39,8.88,6.00,16.19,3.96,6.85, 1.54,0.33,0.16,0.21,0.29,0.25,0.37,0.19
FRA_Alsace,28.49,24.36,12.31,7.12,12.76,5.91,6.23, 1.50,0.20,0.31,0.14,0.20,0.14,0.13,0.19
FRA_Armorica,33.63,28.77,9.43,8.78,10.92,3.51,2.23 ,0.79,0.81,0.15,0.14,0.39,0.18,0.15,0.12
FRA_Belgica,30.06,25.90,9.94,7.14,13.16,4.86,5.19, 1.51,0.65,0.21,0.22,0.33,0.20,0.26,0.38
FRA_Septimania,23.44,30.07,6.86,5.00,20.86,2.32,7. 92,1.58,0.42,0.08,0.14,0.41,0.38,0.36,0.15
FRA_Provence,21.75,23.86,7.06,4.44,18.01,6.15,14.5 5,2.44,0.32,0.13,0.18,0.25,0.24,0.47,0.16
FRA_Aquitania,20.30,39.32,4.81,2.49,24.29,0.77,4.4 4,1.91,0.45,0.30,0.23,0.20,0.21,0.17,0.13

https://i.imgur.com/WwtEH3E.png

=====

Swiss German Eurogenes K13 and K15:


Swiss_German,41.14,21.44,17.58,6.72,10.25,1.25,0.3 0,0.10,0.30,0.38,0.36,0.11,0.08

Swiss_German,29.02,24.29,11.25,7.06,13.51,5.61,7.4 0,1.10,0.15,0.01,0.10,0.21,0.17,0.07,0.04

=====

Edit:

Languedoc renamed Septimania:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania
Alsace and Provence can remain, I think. Those are widely known regions. But the rest are less obvious except for Central of course.

Armorica = Northwest_French
Belgica = Northeast_French
Aquitania = Southwest_French
Languedoc = South_French

[Jana]

If Creoda wants to add more German regions better to make for whole former West Germany north-west, central-west, south-west and south-east. If we follow the rule to not make too many small regions in K13 updated sheet.

Germany is at least most populous European country if Russia is excluded. But I agree. Italy, Spain and Greece have too many averages for example.
I am suprised there isn't western Polish average by the way, pretty sure Peterski can easily make one if he wants. Because from what I saw they are genetically distinct from you for example.
Such average would be an improvement.

[MoroLP]

Italy, Spain, and Greece have too many averages for example.

Hmm, Italy and Spain are incomparable to Greece with the size of the country and population. Italy and Spain, excluding Russia (and Turkey), are Top 5 European countries by population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population) so it's fine if they have more than double 4-5 regional averages based on their administrative division. Greece (~10 million) has a population that is two times lower than Romania (~20 million), and almost the same thing is about their respective country area. Besides Italy and Spain, Germany, France, England, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, and the Netherlands statistically should or can have more than double 4-5 regional averages, perhaps according to their administrative division or else.


No, it's not. Each one of them is quite different, and Romania is almost a 20m country. The one that could be removed perhaps is Romania_Wallachia, since it's the average of Muntenia and Oltenia.

I'm not familiar with the administrative and historical/genetical division of Romania and Romanians and didn't check it now, but currently, there are 10 regional averages, perhaps should be lowered to 7, having averaged Romania_Moldavia and removing Muntenia and Oltenia if Wallachia is their average.

[Leto]

Let's keep in mind not all countries can be simply divided into North, South, etc. Some nations do have a more complex genetic history. Also many countries are unevenly populated. I know most people here are European but let's look at Egypt for example. Obviously the Nile valley would be the most important

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Egypt_2010_population_density1.png

[Jana]

Hmm, Italy and Spain are incomparable to Greece with the size of the country and population. Italy and Spain, excluding Russia (and Turkey), are Top 5 countries by population (List of European countries by population) so it's fine if they have more than double 4-5 regional averages based on their administrative division. Greece (~10 million) has a population that is two times lower than Romania (~20 million), and almost the same thing is about their respective country area. Romania also should have a bit more than 4-5 regional averages.

Agree, but Greece has far more genetic diversity than Spain for example. Iberians are very homogenous considering how big and populous their peninsula is.
Greece has Anatolian Greeks, Pontics, Islanders, Mainlanders, Cypriots, they are all very different from each other. But even with that having almost 30 averages is simply far too much.

[Lucas]

Here is the map

Alsace and Provence can remain, I think. Those are widely known regions. But the rest are less obvious except for Central of course.

Armorica = Northwest_French
Belgica = Northeast_French
Aquitania = Southwest_French
Languedoc = South_French

I did it already.

[Jana]

I think for Spain 4-7 averages would be enough (NW, NE, SW, SE, Basque and Canarian + one general average).
Italy and Greece require more but they should be in resonable amount (10-15 for each maybe? others will know better)

[MoroLP]

Agree, but Greece has far more genetic diversity than Spain for example. Iberians are very homogenous considering how big and populous their peninsula is.
Greece has Anatolian Greeks, Pontics, Islanders, Mainlanders, Cypriots, they are all very different from each other. But even with that having almost 30 averages is simply far too much.

Of course, as Leto said, some countries/nations have a more complex administrative division, genetic history, and so on. In other words, a few factors should be taken into account, but too many averages are too many averages.

[MoroLP]

I think for Spain 4-7 averages would be enough (NW, NE, SW, SE, Basque and Canarian + one general average).
Italy and Greece require more but they should be in resonable amount (10-15 for each maybe? others will know better)

Spain should have 6-7 regional averages at least. Yes, Spanish regional averages are similar in comparison to Greece and Italy. Take all K13 averages and place them at Vahaduo Custom PCA, Italy has an enormous range, far larger than Greece/Greeks, largest in Europe as a matter of fact and perhaps even in the world for a single nation, and as such would be best to keep all Italian administrative regions averages (except those 4 sub-regional mentioned before).

[Leto]

I think for Spain 4-7 averages would be enough (NW, NE, SW, SE, Basque and Canarian + one general average).
Italy and Greece require more but they should be in resonable amount (10-15 for each maybe? others will know better)
Davidski's Spanish avgs are more or less based on the autonomous communities
https://www.red2000.com/spain/images/r-map-en.gif

[Jana]

Davidski's Spanish avgs are more or less based on the autonomous communities
https://www.red2000.com/spain/images/r-map-en.gif

Yeah, pretty sure quite a few of them are basically identical. I know country like Portugal doesn't even require regional averages, they are so homogenous :D
Catalans drift towards French, Baques have their own drift (and people living near Basque Lands) and Canarians have strong north African input.
But other than that there aren't huge genetic differences in Iberia, they have more differences on W-E cline than N-S as far as I know.

[Dunai]

No, it's not. Each one of them is quite different, and Romania is almost a 20m country. The one that could be removed perhaps is Romania_Wallachia, since it's the average of Muntenia and Oltenia.

Both Moldavia and Wallachia were principalities, Muntenia, Oltenia, South and North Moldavia are just way too detailed narrowing down, even if they exist in reality. But the people in these two principalities were either Moldavians or Wallachians, so just two for them would be plenty enough. In my opinion Dobruja can be added to Wallachia, since it was populated by Wallachians after uniting with Romania. Regarding Transylvania, you can pretty much add both Maramures and Crisana to it, since they are too small to exist separately and are culturally connected with Transylvania. In my opinion even Banat can be added to one Transylvanian average, since they are also way too small to exist separately and don't differ much genetically from Transylvanians. 3 main regions for Romanians is better, than having so many neighboring small regions that are very similar to one another.

[Leto]

@Lucas, I've renamed the Russians, it's better when they start with the word Russian. Erzya_Mordovian instead of Erzya is more understandable. At least people can google Mordovia and see it on the map.


Russian_Kargopol,24.92,48.36,7.52,5.54,1.50,0.04,2 .49,0.23,6.67,1.70,0.23,0.53,0.26
Russian_Kostroma,26.19,48.54,6.21,5.35,3.19,0.39,1 .05,0.69,6.37,1.16,0.52,0.19,0.16
Russian_Pinega,24.72,51.94,5.05,2.82,0.39,0.58,1.5 8,0.24,9.96,1.96,0.27,0.31,0.23
Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83,1.69,1 .38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Russian_Southwest,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.26,0.55, 1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Erzya_Mordovian,21.08,50.52,6.40,7.60,2.62,0.32,1. 78,0.49,7.11,1.50,0.00,0.25,0.33

[MoroLP]

...3 main regions for Romanians is better, than having so many neighboring small regions that are very similar to one another.

No, it's really not, too low, look at Vahaduo PCA. I think that for Romania we also should have 6-7 regional, something along NUTS 2 statistical regions of Romania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Romania#/media/File:Regiuni_de_dezvoltare.svg)? Ion, do you agree, or at least try making them if we already don't have them?

[Dunai]

No, it's really not, too low, look at Vahaduo PCA. I think that for Romania we also should have 6-7 regional, something along NUTS 2 statistical regions of Romania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Romania#/media/File:Regiuni_de_dezvoltare.svg)? Ion, do you agree, or at least try making them if we already don't have them?

What you posted are Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics regions, made in the 2000s for EU funds. What I'm speaking are historical considerations, and what I sad are based on historical but also modern day genetic reality of Romanians. For example there are some differences between both Northern and Southern Transdanubia and Alföld Hungarians genetically, but still opted to only one average for each, because why should I divide Hungary more when it's not that important. One average for each historic region is more than enough, no matter if it has some differences between the south and north, east and west of that region.

[Ion Basescul]

Both Moldavia and Wallachia were principalities, Muntenia, Oltenia, South and North Moldavia are just way too detailed narrowing down, even if they exist in reality. But the people in these two principalities were either Moldavians or Wallachians, so just two for them would be plenty enough. In my opinion Dobruja can be added to Wallachia, since it was populated by Wallachians after uniting with Romania. Regarding Transylvania, you can pretty much add both Maramures and Crisana to it, since they are too small to exist separately and are culturally connected with Transylvania. In my opinion even Banat can be added to one Transylvanian average, since they are also way too small to exist separately and don't differ much genetically from Transylvanians. 3 main regions for Romanians is better, than having so many neighboring small regions that are very similar to one another.

There are differences and all of them exist for a reason.

Moldavia_North is mixed with Ukrainians, especially those from Bukovina.
Moldavia_South is intermediary between Moldavia_North and Wallachia. Probably one of the "purest" regions in the country, as it didn't have significant historic communities.
Muntenia is mixed with Bulgarians.
Dobruja is a recent colony, populated by people from all over the country and then also some Turks and Tatars mixed in.
Oltenia had a Hungarian presence, which is also noticeable genetically.
Banat had a strong migration from Oltenia.
Crisana is noticeably mixed with Hungarians.
Maramures is like Moldavia_North, as in mixed with Ukrainians, but not as significantly.
And Transylvania is similar to Crisana, but also received significant migration from Wallachia and Moldavia in communist times.

I am not consolidating them, as it will compromise accuracy for no reason at all. For a country of Romania's size and diversity, 10 averages is fair. Better cut the Ethiopian regions or some of the exotic populations from Southeast Asia and Africa, which is not meaningful to most users on this forum.

[MoroLP]

...what I sad are based on historical but also modern day genetic reality of Romanians. For example there are some differences between both Northern and Southern Transdanubia and Alföld Hungarians genetically, but still opted to only one average for each, because why should I divide Hungary more when it's not that important. One average for each historic region is more than enough, no matter if it has some differences between the south and north, east and west of that region.

Your comparison between Hungary and Romania isn't reasonable. Romania has double the population and territorial area than Hungary, as well Romanian regional averages have a wider distance between themselves than those Hungarian with the exception of Hungarian Transylvania which is a Hungarian outlier with an expected inclination toward Moldavia and Romania.


For a country of Romania's size and diversity, 10 averages is fair. Better cut the Ethiopian regions or some of the exotic populations from Southeast Asia and Africa, which is not meaningful to most users on this forum.

Well, in the end, 10 averages for Romania perhaps are fine. I don't understand what the Ethiopian case has anything to do with Romanian averages. It's unrelated as each country/nation is its own case, it's not like we have a limited number of total averages, and we shouldn't cut any Ethiopian regions because people worldwide are using K13 Vahaduo, as well as Ethiopia has a population of more than 100 million, that's discriminatory...

[Dunai]

There are differences and all of them exist for a reason.

Moldavia_North is mixed with Ukrainians, especially those from Bukovina.
Moldavia_South is intermediary between Moldavia_North and Wallachia.
Muntenia is mixed with Bulgarians.
Dobruja is a recent colony, populated by people from all over the country and then also some Turks and Tatars mixed in.
Oltenia had a Hungarian presence, which is also noticeable genetically.
Banat had a strong migration from Oltenia.
Crisana is noticeably mixed with Hungarians.
Maramures is like Moldavia_North, as in mixed with Ukrainians, but not as significantly.
And Transylvania is similar to Crisana, but also received significant migration from Wallachia and Moldavia in communist times.

I am not consolidating them, as it will compromise accuracy for no reason at all. For a country of Romania's size and diversity, 10 averages is fair. Better cut the Ethiopian regions or some of the exotic populations from Southeast Asia and Africa, which is not meaningful to most users on this forum.

Of course there won't be pure populations in any regions, since there was always mixing going on, all I'm saying for international purposes and to have more concise samples, it's better to not nit-pick to perfection all these differences within the regions, and rather use more broader regional averages. I even gave as an example about Hungary, where I could also easily nit-pick, but for an outsider how is it helpful to get North Alföd, South Transdanubia and so on, rather than the main historic region, as in Alföld or Transdanubia, which are more meaningful and easy to recognize?

Just checked how do these sub-regions compare to their broader region and you can see that both Crisana and Maramures are very close to Transylvania average, while the distances between Muntenia, Oltenia and Dobruja are even smaller with one another, and fit very well to the broader Wallachian average. Only slightly bigger differences I could notice between Banat and rest of Transylvania, and between both Moldavian regions, therefore maybe these could remain separately, but one broad Wallachia and Transylvania average for Romanians is enough.
Distance to: Romania_Maramures
2.79032256 Romania_Crisana
3.07353217 Romania_Transylvania

Distance to: Romania_Crisana
1.76031247 Romania_Transylvania
2.79032256 Romania_Maramures

Distance to: Romania_Muntenia
0.64575537 Romania_Wallachia
0.77511290 Romania_Dobruja
2.18970318 Romania_Oltenia

Distance to: Romania_Oltenia
1.55319027 Romania_Wallachia
1.77628826 Romania_Dobruja
2.18970318 Romania_Muntenia

[Dunai]

Your comparison between Hungary and Romania isn't reasonable. Romania has double the population and territorial area than Hungary, as well Romanian regional averages have a wider distance between themselves than those Hungarian with the exception of Hungarian Transylvania which is a Hungarian outlier with an expected inclination toward Moldavia and Romania.



Well, in the end, 10 averages for Romania perhaps are fine. I don't understand what the Ethiopian case has anything to do with Romanian averages. It's unrelated as each country/nation is its own case, it's not like we have a limited number of total averages, and we shouldn't cut any Ethiopian regions because people worldwide are using K13 Vahaduo, as well as Ethiopia has a population of more than 100 million, that's discriminatory...

Larger population doesn't equal that there should be more regional averages, especially when within a region distances between sub-regions are very close to one another. It's just unnecessary. On another note Transylvanian Hungarians aren't closer to Romanians and Moldavians, but actually to Székelys, Csángós, Croatians and Hungarians.

Distance to: Hungarian_Transylvania
1.16619038 Székely
2.06661559 Csángó
3.74759923 Croat_West
4.67794827 Croat_South
4.93330518 Croat
4.94560411 Hungarian
4.96957745 Hungarian_Alföld
5.43561404 Serb_north
5.44066172 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.47866772 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
5.71539150 Serb_central
5.91459212 Serb
6.02299759 Bosniak
6.13950324 Romania_Maramures
6.49513664 Romania_Crisana
6.54796151 Croat_East
6.61689504 Moldova_Centre
6.64836822 Croat_North
6.85382375 Moldova_average
7.28390005 Romania_Moldavia_South
7.38275694 Slovenian
7.75199974 Romania_Transylvania
7.83529195 Hungarian_Northern
7.85563492 Moldova_North

[Tacitus]

I think for Spain 4-7 averages would be enough (NW, NE, SW, SE, Basque and Canarian + one general average).
Italy and Greece require more but they should be in resonable amount (10-15 for each maybe? others will know better)

I advocate for these Italian averages getting tossed, many of which are subregional averages that aren't necessary IMO (also, do we really need to divide a subregion like Emilia in two?):

IT_Insubria,32.58,12.51,24.96,7.90,18.79,2.07,0.05 ,0.27,0.12,0.14,0.21,0.22,0.12
IT_Orobia,33.02,11.21,25.86,6.82,19.58,2.31,0.24,0 .13,0.25,0.21,0.05,0.23,0.03
IT_Emilia_ovest,30.28,10.80,24.92,8.49,21.36,2.54, 0.31,0.45,0.00,0.32,0.40,0.03,0.04
IT_Emilia_est,28.39,11.31,23.83,8.27,22.84,4.00,0. 19,0.30,0.09,0.21,0.32,0.14,0.03
IT_Sannio,18.49,7.95,23.25,13.57,29.86,4.99,0.39,0 .03,0.22,0.55,0.15,0.33,0.16
IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95,0.28,0 .05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50,0.37, 0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
IT_Calabria_citra,16.45,6.16,22.01,14.95,32.59,5.5 2,0.52,0.23,0.04,0.18,0.6,0.41,0.28
IT_Salento,19.24,6.97,22.95,14.88,30.37,4.23,0.00, 0.27,0.03,0.52,0.29,0.16,0.06
IT_Calabria_ultra,16.11,5.87,21.72,14.90,32.65,6.5 1,0.24,0.34,0.00,0.04,0.17,1.16,0.21

Also, IT_Lucania sample is identical to IT_Basilicata (it's the same region but using an archaic name for it), and we don't need the Puglia sample since we already have one.

[Leto]

Romani should be deleted, Balkan_Gypsy is better. Moldova_Roma is also weak, only two samples. Ion Basescul's Romania_Muntenia_Roma is more solid


Romania_Muntenia_Roma,10.87,10.98,13.02,16.12,19.2 4,2.66,23.01,1.43,0.72,0.21,1.21,0.39,0.14

[Jana]

@Lucas, I've renamed the Russians, it's better when they start with the word Russian. Erzya_Mordovian instead of Erzya is more understandable. At least people can google Mordovia and see it on the map.


Russian_Kargopol,24.92,48.36,7.52,5.54,1.50,0.04,2 .49,0.23,6.67,1.70,0.23,0.53,0.26
Russian_Kostroma,26.19,48.54,6.21,5.35,3.19,0.39,1 .05,0.69,6.37,1.16,0.52,0.19,0.16
Russian_Pinega,24.72,51.94,5.05,2.82,0.39,0.58,1.5 8,0.24,9.96,1.96,0.27,0.31,0.23
Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83,1.69,1 .38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Russian_Southwest,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.26,0.55, 1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Erzya_Mordovian,21.08,50.52,6.40,7.60,2.62,0.32,1. 78,0.49,7.11,1.50,0.00,0.25,0.33


Couldn't you make averages for Russia like west, central, north etc? From these SW Russian is okay, other are based on one city which is pretty dumb. I know you have hundreds of east Slavic results.
I also dislike Ukrainian_Lviv average for example, broader west Ukrainian average would be better.

[Leto]

Couldn't you make averages for Russia like west, central, north etc? From these SW Russian is okay, other are based on one city which is pretty dumb. I know you have hundreds of east Slavic results.
I also dislike Ukrainian_Lviv average for example, broader west Ukrainian average would be better.
Honestly I don't feel like doing that. That'd take a lot of effort. On Dodecad we have a few good Russian references, I mostly use D K12b for Russians, it's also easier to have a database in only one format. I started with Dodecad back in 2018, by now many kits might be deleted, so I only have their K12b results.
Lukasz can add a few more (he added some academic stuff to Dodecad). I'd add Ryazan, Tver and Pskov personally.
Cities are not a problem, they can be understood as proxies. Smolensk = one of the Westernmost Russian oblasts. Lviv = proxy for Western Ukraine/Galicia. Kostroma, Kargopol = proxy for Northern Russian. Etc.

[Jana]

Honestly I don't feel like doing that. That'd take a lot of effort. On Dodecad we have a few good Russian references, I mostly use D K12b for Russians, it's also easier to have a database in only one format. I started with Dodecad back in 2018, by now many kits might be deleted, so I only have their K12b results.
Lukasz can add a few more (he added some academic stuff to Dodecad). I'd add Ryazan, Tver and Pskov personally.
Cities are not a problem, they can be understood as proxies. Smolensk = one of the Westernmost Russian oblasts. Lviv = proxy for Western Ukraine/Galicia. Kostroma, Kargopol = proxy for Northern Russian. Etc.

If they are proxies, maybe averages could be simply renamed to regions they represent? Most people don't know where Pinega or Kargopol are. Yeah they can google it, but you get my point. IMO averages should be as easy to understand as possible.

[Leto]

Peterski has Ukrainian_Kiev and Belarusian_Minsk, pretty solid academic data set. Both are capitals and iconic places/oblasts. I've only seen K15 which I don't use much. But he won't add shit to an LM project. I've been begging him to give me that data for months and to no avail.

[Dunai]

Honestly I don't feel like doing that. That'd take a lot of effort. On Dodecad we have a few good Russian references, I mostly use D K12b for Russians, it's also easier to have a database in only one format. I started with Dodecad back in 2018, by now many kits might be deleted, so I only have their K12b results.
Lukasz can add a few more (he added some academic stuff to Dodecad). I'd add Ryazan, Tver and Pskov personally.
Cities are not a problem, they can be understood as proxies. Smolensk = one of the Westernmost Russian oblasts. Lviv = proxy for Western Ukraine/Galicia. Kostroma, Kargopol = proxy for Northern Russian. Etc.

I can confirm, it's quite a pain in the ass to manually run all kits once again on a different calculator and then add them in a sheet in order, then calculate them, and when you have hundreds, such a task totally takes way too many hours to even estimate, days more like. It's why it takes so long for me to advance with my K15 averages for Hungarians, especially that most often don't have super much time for this.

[Jana]

Peterski has Ukrainian_Kiev and Belarusian_Minsk, pretty solid academic data set. Both are capitals and iconic places/oblasts. I've only seen K15 which I don't use much. But he won't add shit to an LM project. I've been begging him to give me that data for months and to no avail.

Yes, and he also has Bavarian and Swabian averages which he posted only in K15. Very unfortunate. I asked him in PM today to send their K13 to Creoda who is making German averages and I hope he will.

[Jana]

Also western Polish average is really needed as I wrote few pages back. Western Poles drift towards Sorbs, Czechs and East Germans, it's a large country and they deserve an average. As we know Peterski is from there and surely has tons of kits. I know he tested his family and relatives for a start and they are all deeply local.

[Leto]

If they are proxies, maybe averages could be simply renamed to regions they represent? Most people don't know where Pinega or Kargopol are. Yeah they can google it, but you get my point. IMO averages should be as easy to understand as possible.
Well, they are proxy but that feels a little wrong to put "North" when it's supposed to be Kargopol only, which is still a specific place even if technically not too different from neighboring ones.
I didn't know Kargopol myself before I learned it from Gedmatch :)

[Leto]

I can confirm, it's quite a pain in the ass to manually run all kits once again on a different calculator and then add them in a sheet in order, then calculate them, and when you have hundreds, such a task totally takes way too many hours to even estimate, days more like. It's why it takes so long for me to advance with my K15 averages for Hungarians, especially that most often don't have super much time for this.
Correct. I understand why you are hesitant to revisit the Dodecad Hungarian :D

[Jana]

To be fair, Peterski did add Masurian K13 average to Vahaduo. He gave it to me and I sent it to Lucas. Please rename it to Polish_Masurian, that way it's more clear what it is. :)

[Leto]

Also western Polish average is really needed as I wrote few pages back. Western Poles drift towards Sorbs, Czechs and East Germans, it's a large country and they deserve an average. As we know Peterski is from there and surely has tons of kits. I know he tested his family and relatives for a start and they are all deeply local.
Yet Davidski did add the bullshit called "Estonian_Polish". Not even 10,000 Poles live in Estonia today.
However, I think "Polish" and "South_Polish" are good ones, representative for a lot of Poles.

[Jana]

Yet Davidski did add the bullshit called "Estonian_Polish". Not even 10,000 Poles live in Estonia today.
However, I think "Polish" and "South_Polish" are good ones, representative for a lot of Poles.

Estonian_Polish is unnecesssary I agree, western Polish is much more needded. But Masurian is pretty good too, nice proxy for NE Poles.
Kashubian average would be nice as well, they are sub-group of Lechites/Poles.

[MoroLP]

Of course there won't be pure populations in any regions, since there was always mixing going on, all I'm saying for international purposes and to have more concise samples, it's better to not nit-pick to perfection all these differences within the regions, and rather use more broader regional averages. I even gave as an example about Hungary, where I could also easily nit-pick, but for an outsider how is it helpful to get North Alföd, South Transdanubia and so on, rather than the main historic region, as in Alföld or Transdanubia, which are more meaningful and easy to recognize?

Just checked how do these sub-regions compare to their broader region and you can see that both Crisana and Maramures are very close to Transylvania average, while the distances between Muntenia, Oltenia and Dobruja are even smaller with one another, and fit very well to the broader Wallachian average. Only slightly bigger differences I could notice between Banat and rest of Transylvania, and between both Moldavian regions, therefore maybe these could remain separately, but one broad Wallachia and Transylvania average for Romanians is enough.


Larger population doesn't equal that there should be more regional averages, especially when within a region distances between sub-regions are very close to one another. It's just unnecessary. On another note Transylvanian Hungarians aren't closer to Romanians and Moldavians, but actually to Székelys, Csángós, Croatians and Hungarians.

As was stated before, first we should look at population size, country area & shape, the establishment of regions and interregional differences, and then genetic proximity of regions averages. It's useful to have more regional averages for Top 10 largest European nations because it gives a shape to the PCA as a whole. It is also good to have less regional averages for countries with lower (2) or intermediate (4) population size and other factors (like Hungary). Look at the current Vahaduo Custom PCA (https://ibb.co/ygXTNGj), how the Romanian averages follow up the pattern between the Bulgarian, Moldavian and Yugoslav averages, how they nicely shape the PCA. Are there 2-3 too many Romanian averages? As said before, probably, but imagine how it would look like if we only had 3 Romanian averages? That's not in the international or usefulness interest.

I didn't say that yet how Transylvanian Hungarians have an inclination from the Hungarian national average toward Moldavians and Romanians. Just look at the PCA, they are in-between Hungarian and Moldavian national averages, as well as Hungarian national average and northern Romanian regional averages.

You want to lower the number of Romanian averages to a minimum, while Ion wants to keep their number to a maximum. I'm proposing an intermediate solution. All happy.

[Dunai]

As was stated before, first we should look at population size, country area & shape, the establishment of regions and interregional differences, and then genetic proximity of regions averages. It's useful to have more regional averages for Top 10 largest European nations because it gives a shape to the PCA as a whole. It is also good to have less regional averages for countries with lower (2) or intermediate (4) population size and other factors (like Hungary). Look at the current Vahaduo Custom PCA (https://ibb.co/ygXTNGj), how the Romanian averages follow up the pattern between the Bulgarian, Moldavian and Yugoslav averages, how they nicely shape the PCA. Are there 2-3 too many Romanian averages? As said before, probably, but imagine how it would look like if we only had 3 Romanian averages? That's not in the international or usefulness interest.

I didn't say that yet how Transylvanian Hungarians have an inclination from the Hungarian national average toward Moldavians and Romanians. Just look at the PCA, they are in-between Hungarian and Moldavian national averages, as well as Hungarian national average and northern Romanian regional averages.

You want to lower the number of Romanian averages to a minimum, while Ion wants to keep their number to a maximum. I'm proposing an intermediate solution. All happy.

I am for more concise database, I find it more useful than seeing one after the other in the distance calculator regions that are basically telling me the same thing and are related with one another. The same type of significant reduction should be applied to Spain, Greece, Italy without doubt. It's just better optics and better usage of space. But this is just my personal suggestion.

[Abriekman]

Is it possible to create Siberian Russian average?

[Abriekman]

And I have a question why is Bulgaria_Northeastern average is more southern, than Bulgarian_Southeastern, Bulgarian_Southcsntral and all other Bulgarian averages?

[Dunai]

And I have a question why is Bulgaria_Northeastern average is more southern, than Bulgarian_Southeastern, Bulgarian_Southcsntral and all other Bulgarian averages?

Another question is, why are there so many regional averages for an otherwise pretty uniform medium-sized country?

[Ion Basescul]

And I have a question why is Bulgaria_Northeastern average is more southern, than Bulgarian_Southeastern

It isn't, unless you guys are not using my averages.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 226px"><col width="117"><col width="68"><col width="39"><col width="66"><col width="73"><col width="63"><col width="55"><col width="78"><col width="70"><col width="54"><col width="74"><col width="60"><col width="74"><col width="80"><col width="85"><col width="63"><col width="65"><col width="57"><col width="47"><col width="40"></colgroup><tbody>
Name
Number of Samples
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan
NE+NW Euro
Med Euro
Caucasus
SW Asia
Siberia
India


Bulgaria_Northeastern
9
22.15
22.37
17.46
13.43
19.44
2.56
0.46
0.32
0.49
0.24
0.29
0.11
0.10
44.52
36.90
13.43
2.67
1.06
0.46


Bulgaria_Northcentral
15
21.30
24.45
17.41
11.88
19.86
2.33
0.65
0.28
0.99
0.37
0.28
0.07
0.14
45.75
37.27
11.88
2.40
1.63
0.65


Bulgaria_Northwestern
27
22.04
26.19
17.58
10.15
19.05
2.31
0.40
0.52
0.70
0.51
0.38
0.07
0.09
48.24
36.63
10.15
2.38
1.73
0.40


Bulgaria_Southeastern
12
20.13
21.81
18.44
13.87
20.44
2.92
0.43
0.30
0.48
0.44
0.47
0.11
0.07
41.95
38.88
13.87
3.03
1.21
0.43


Bulgaria_Southcentral
33
21.27
23.54
18.13
11.65
20.17
2.46
0.60
0.36
0.90
0.35
0.32
0.21
0.04
44.81
38.31
11.65
2.67
1.60
0.60


Bulgaria_Southwestern
31
22.81
24.21
17.86
11.56
18.51
2.23
0.59
0.54
0.85
0.39
0.33
0.07
0.06
47.02
36.37
11.56
2.30
1.78
0.59


Bulgaria_average
127
21.74
24.31
17.91
11.52
19.38
2.40
0.53
0.44
0.80
0.41
0.36
0.12
0.07
46.04
37.29
11.52
2.52
1.65
0.53

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

[Ion Basescul]

Another question is, why are there so many regional averages for an otherwise pretty uniform medium-sized country?

Why are we even having this conversation? The whole point of the updated spreadsheet is to have regional averages, sure not in the range of 15-20 as in the past, but up to 10 depending on the size of the country is pretty reasonable.
Otherwise, we might as well delete it and return to the original spreadsheet with 1-3 averages, depending on the country.
I think that some of you are arguing because you are bored.

[Dunai]

Why are we even having this conversation? The whole point of the updated spreadsheet is to have regional averages, sure not in the range of 15-20 as in the past, but up to 10 depending on the size of the country is pretty reasonable.
Otherwise, we might as well delete it and return to the original spreadsheet with 1-3 averages, depending on the country.
I think that some of you are arguing because you are bored.

I'm expressing my opinion, which was from the beginning, that broader regions and national (cross-border where it's the case) averages are more interesting, than small region averages. At the end it's not me who decides, but I can make suggestions when I see it fit and substantiated.

[Kyp]

For Dodecadk12b:


Iran_Arab,18.52,0.29,2.61,0.21,6.69,3.63,4.18,3.35 ,23.35,0.45,34.63,1.87

[MoroLP]

I am for more concise database... It's just better optics and better usage of space...

To you maybe is, to others, it's not - but it depends on what you want to do. If it is needed to edit the source for required distance, multiple, and PCA.

In other words, again, we should have a general and well-detailed database source on Vahaduo which would be an intermediate between the concise minimum and sub-regional maximum.

@Lucas, can you create a sticky thread that will be easily accessible for others with spreadsheets of a minimum number, which is roughly 1 national average + 1-3 regional averages depending on the country, and of a maximum number, which is all these regional and sub-regional averages we are speaking about? All happy.

[MoroLP]

It isn't, unless you guys are not using my averages.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 226px"><col width="117"><col width="68"><col width="39"><col width="66"><col width="73"><col width="63"><col width="55"><col width="78"><col width="70"><col width="54"><col width="74"><col width="60"><col width="74"><col width="80"><col width="85"><col width="63"><col width="65"><col width="57"><col width="47"><col width="40"></colgroup><tbody>
Name
Number of Samples
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan
NE+NW Euro
Med Euro
Caucasus
SW Asia
Siberia
India


Bulgaria_Northeastern
9
22.15
22.37
17.46
13.43
19.44
2.56
0.46
0.32
0.49
0.24
0.29
0.11
0.10
44.52
36.90
13.43
2.67
1.06
0.46


Bulgaria_Northcentral
15
21.30
24.45
17.41
11.88
19.86
2.33
0.65
0.28
0.99
0.37
0.28
0.07
0.14
45.75
37.27
11.88
2.40
1.63
0.65


Bulgaria_Northwestern
27
22.04
26.19
17.58
10.15
19.05
2.31
0.40
0.52
0.70
0.51
0.38
0.07
0.09
48.24
36.63
10.15
2.38
1.73
0.40


Bulgaria_Southeastern
12
20.13
21.81
18.44
13.87
20.44
2.92
0.43
0.30
0.48
0.44
0.47
0.11
0.07
41.95
38.88
13.87
3.03
1.21
0.43


Bulgaria_Southcentral
33
21.27
23.54
18.13
11.65
20.17
2.46
0.60
0.36
0.90
0.35
0.32
0.21
0.04
44.81
38.31
11.65
2.67
1.60
0.60


Bulgaria_Southwestern
31
22.81
24.21
17.86
11.56
18.51
2.23
0.59
0.54
0.85
0.39
0.33
0.07
0.06
47.02
36.37
11.56
2.30
1.78
0.59


Bulgaria_average
127
21.74
24.31
17.91
11.52
19.38
2.40
0.53
0.44
0.80
0.41
0.36
0.12
0.07
46.04
37.29
11.52
2.52
1.65
0.53

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

Fine for me, but Northcentral and Southcentral should be merged forming Bulgaria_Central (look at PCA (https://ibb.co/2vJJJHY)) and so 5/6 regional averages on Vahaduo while 6/6 on the maximum spreadsheet?

[J. Ketch]

To you maybe is, to others, it's not - but it depends on what you want to do. If it is needed to edit the source for required distance, multiple, and PCA.

In other words, again, we should have a general and well-detailed database source on Vahaduo which would be an intermediate between the concise minimum and sub-regional maximum.

@Lucas, can you create a sticky thread that will be easily accessible for others with spreadsheets of a minimum number, which is roughly 1 national average + 1-3 regional averages depending on the country, and of a maximum number, which is all these regional and sub-regional averages we are speaking about? All happy.
A separate sheet for smaller regions/groups is a good idea :thumb001:

[Lucas]

I advocate for these Italian averages getting tossed, many of which are subregional averages that aren't necessary IMO (also, do we really need to divide a subregion like Emilia in two?):

IT_Insubria,32.58,12.51,24.96,7.90,18.79,2.07,0.05 ,0.27,0.12,0.14,0.21,0.22,0.12
IT_Orobia,33.02,11.21,25.86,6.82,19.58,2.31,0.24,0 .13,0.25,0.21,0.05,0.23,0.03
IT_Emilia_ovest,30.28,10.80,24.92,8.49,21.36,2.54, 0.31,0.45,0.00,0.32,0.40,0.03,0.04
IT_Emilia_est,28.39,11.31,23.83,8.27,22.84,4.00,0. 19,0.30,0.09,0.21,0.32,0.14,0.03
IT_Sannio,18.49,7.95,23.25,13.57,29.86,4.99,0.39,0 .03,0.22,0.55,0.15,0.33,0.16
IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95,0.28,0 .05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50,0.37, 0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
IT_Calabria_citra,16.45,6.16,22.01,14.95,32.59,5.5 2,0.52,0.23,0.04,0.18,0.6,0.41,0.28
IT_Salento,19.24,6.97,22.95,14.88,30.37,4.23,0.00, 0.27,0.03,0.52,0.29,0.16,0.06
IT_Calabria_ultra,16.11,5.87,21.72,14.90,32.65,6.5 1,0.24,0.34,0.00,0.04,0.17,1.16,0.21

Also, IT_Lucania sample is identical to IT_Basilicata (it's the same region but using an archaic name for it), and we don't need the Puglia sample since we already have one.

Ok removed.

[Lucas]

And I have a question why is Bulgaria_Northeastern average is more southern, than Bulgarian_Southeastern, Bulgarian_Southcsntral and all other Bulgarian averages?

From what I know it is one kit only. Maybe for K13 is more but probably not. I can remove it.

[Lucas]

To you maybe is, to others, it's not - but it depends on what you want to do. If it is needed to edit the source for required distance, multiple, and PCA.

In other words, again, we should have a general and well-detailed database source on Vahaduo which would be an intermediate between the concise minimum and sub-regional maximum.

@Lucas, can you create a sticky thread that will be easily accessible for others with spreadsheets of a minimum number, which is roughly 1 national average + 1-3 regional averages depending on the country, and of a maximum number, which is all these regional and sub-regional averages we are speaking about? All happy.

I ask Loki to make it sticky.

[Leto]

I ask Loki to make it sticky.
Let's have a new thread. 250 pages is way too long and also the title doesn't make sense anymore 'cause it's no longer new.

[Lucas]

For Dodecadk12b:


Iran_Arab,18.52,0.29,2.61,0.21,6.69,3.63,4.18,3.35 ,23.35,0.45,34.63,1.87

Added.

[Lucas]

Let's have a new thread. 250 pages is way too long and also the title doesn't make sense anymore 'cause it's no longer new.

I don't like this custom to make vol. 2, vol.3 etc of longer threads.

[Leto]

I don't like this custom to make vol. 2, vol.3 etc of longer threads.
Then it will only continue to grow. I would close this one and make a Vahaduo custom spreadsheets one, something like that.

By the way, you need to skip a dozen of pages back, there were some minor updates like Pamiri, some averages with rounded values, renamed Russians, etc.

[Leto]

I don't like this custom to make vol. 2, vol.3 etc of longer threads.
Then it will only continue to grow becoming harder to navigate. I would close this one and make a Vahaduo custom spreadsheets one, something like that.

By the way, you need to skip a dozen of pages back, there were some minor updates like Pamiri, some averages with rounded values, renamed Russians, etc.

[Thracian]

From what I know it is one kit only. Maybe for K13 is more but probably not. I can remove it.

You don't need to remove it. Ion already explained it and there are 9 samples and it is not more southern than Southeastern Bulgarian for sure.

[Leto]

I've polished the Italian references from Dodecad (rounded the values and changed from Italy to Italian)


Italian_Abruzzo,7.59,0.03,3.23,0.04,29.12,16.1,0,0 .08,10.91,0.32,32.6,0
Italian_Aosta_Valley,5.82,0.06,1.62,0.14,40.65,29. 99,0.25,0.05,4.3,0.03,16.98,0.1
Italian_Apulia,7.38,0.32,2.81,0.34,26.2,17.19,0.27 ,0.27,11.31,0.41,33.36,0.15
Italian_Calabria,7,0.13,4.18,0.08,27,11.44,0.26,0. 6,13.52,0.22,35.45,0.1
Italian_Campania,7.07,0.09,2.82,0.09,28.91,13.73,0 .1,0.33,12.32,0.02,34.34,0.1
Italian_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.18,37.61,22.76,0.14,0 .11,7.4,0.25,24.22,0.06
Italian_Friuli_VG,5.44,0.28,1.17,0.01,34.92,29.32, 0.08,0,7.03,0,21.72,0.02
Italian_Lazio,6.73,0,2.67,0.05,31.7,19.82,0.26,0.0 7,9.79,0.17,28.75,0
Italian_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.01,0.09,37.89,23.23,0.2 5,0.05,7.89,0.05,23.39,0
Italian_Lombardy,4.75,0.12,1.12,0.04,39.63,25.08,0 .17,0.01,6.41,0.03,22.62,0.03
Italian_Marche,6.42,0.08,2.38,0.05,32.91,18.72,0.2 9,0.27,9.80,0,29.042,0.03
Italian_Piedmont,5.92,0.13,1.73,0.09,37.82,26.02,0 .04,0.04,6.73,0.02,21.37,0.1
Italian_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0 ,8.99,0,27.19,0
Italian_Sicily,7.31,0.48,4.59,0.10,27.22,13.45,0.2 5,0.65,12.1,0.05,33.16,0.64
Italian_Trentino,4.79,0.22,0.73,0.04,38.71,29.79,0 ,0,5.47,0.02,20.22,0
Italian_Tuscany,6.12,0.05,1.21,0.14,36.89,21.81,0. 16,0.06,8.21,0,25.36,0
Italian_Veneto,5.44,0.04,1.43,0.18,36.93,27.16,0.0 6,0,5.73,0.15,22.83,0.03

[Lucas]

You don't need to remove it. Ion already explained it and there are 9 samples and it is not more southern than Southeastern Bulgarian for sure.

Ok I didn't. I don't remember if Bulgarian regions aren't from Kaspias?

[Lucas]

I've polished the Italian references from Dodecad (rounded the values and changed from Italy to Italian)


Italian_Abruzzo,7.59,0.03,3.23,0.04,29.12,16.1,0,0 .08,10.91,0.32,32.6,0
Italian_Aosta_Valley,5.82,0.06,1.62,0.14,40.65,29. 99,0.25,0.05,4.3,0.03,16.98,0.1
Italian_Apulia,7.38,0.32,2.81,0.34,26.2,17.19,0.27 ,0.27,11.31,0.41,33.36,0.15
Italian_Calabria,7,0.13,4.18,0.08,27,11.44,0.26,0. 6,13.52,0.22,35.45,0.1
Italian_Campania,7.07,0.09,2.82,0.09,28.91,13.73,0 .1,0.33,12.32,0.02,34.34,0.1
Italian_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.18,37.61,22.76,0.14,0 .11,7.4,0.25,24.22,0.06
Italian_Friuli_VG,5.44,0.28,1.17,0.01,34.92,29.32, 0.08,0,7.03,0,21.72,0.02
Italian_Lazio,6.73,0,2.67,0.05,31.7,19.82,0.26,0.0 7,9.79,0.17,28.75,0
Italian_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.01,0.09,37.89,23.23,0.2 5,0.05,7.89,0.05,23.39,0
Italian_Lombardy,4.75,0.12,1.12,0.04,39.63,25.08,0 .17,0.01,6.41,0.03,22.62,0.03
Italian_Marche,6.42,0.08,2.38,0.05,32.91,18.72,0.2 9,0.27,9.80,0,29.042,0.03
Italian_Piedmont,5.92,0.13,1.73,0.09,37.82,26.02,0 .04,0.04,6.73,0.02,21.37,0.1
Italian_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0 ,8.99,0,27.19,0
Italian_Sicily,7.31,0.48,4.59,0.10,27.22,13.45,0.2 5,0.65,12.1,0.05,33.16,0.64
Italian_Trentino,4.79,0.22,0.73,0.04,38.71,29.79,0 ,0,5.47,0.02,20.22,0
Italian_Tuscany,6.12,0.05,1.21,0.14,36.89,21.81,0. 16,0.06,8.21,0,25.36,0
Italian_Veneto,5.44,0.04,1.43,0.18,36.93,27.16,0.0 6,0,5.73,0.15,22.83,0.03


Fixed

[Kaspias]

Ok I didn't. I don't remember if Bulgarian regions aren't from Kaspias?

Eurogenes K13 is from Ion. Dodecad K12b is from me. For details:

Eurogenes K13
(https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?333385-Bulgarian-GEDmatch-Results)
Dodecad K12b (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?334282-Bulgarian-Dodecad-K12b-averages-with-115-samples)

[Leto]

These are the overlooked posts

For Dodecad k12b



Tibetan,1.97,12.01,0.21,14.82,0,0.6,6.7,0.16,0.03, 62.8,0,0.7
Lipka_Tatar,9.16,10.71,0.13,1.71,14.76,31.86,1.03, 0,2.18,12.9,15.43,0.12



For Eurogenes K13


Pamiri_Tajikistan,13.48,15.13,0,37.53,3.65,0.14,19 .84,1.37,4.92,3.14,0.23,0.06,0.53



Please remove these on K13:
Latvian,26.7383333333,58.3616666667,6.41,2.7266666 667,0.7816666667,1.095,0.7733333333,0.0933333333,1 .4333333333,0.7316666667,0.3216666667,0.3283333333 ,0.22
Slovak,30.84,37.1846153846,12.9876923077,6.2976923 077,8.0007692308,1.0869230769,1.0276923077,0.39153 84615,0.5769230769,0.7338461538,0.5307692308,0.146 1538462,0.2138461538
Turk_Western_Thrace,18.13666667,18.07,14.46333333, 14.55333333,23.87,3.053333333,0.56,1.393333333,4.1 93333333,0.673333333,0.356666667,0.043333333,0.316 666667
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86333333,21.44333333,13 .87666667,13.28666667,20.28333333,2.653333333,2.03 6666667,2.72,1.99,0.863333333,0.296666667,0.196666 667,0.493333333
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.69666667,18.65666667,15.3 9,15.38333333,18.53666667,2.72,2.336666667,1.65333 3333,3.256666667,0.893333333,0.196666667,0.17,0.11

And replace them with these, as I rounded them for aesthetic reasons:
Latvian,26.74,58.36,6.41,2.73,0.78,1.1,0.77,0.09,1 .43,0.73,0.32,0.33,0.22
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21
Turk_Western_Thrace,18.14,18.07,14.46,14.55,23.87, 3.05,0.56,1.39,4.19,0.67,0.36,0.04,0.32
Turk_Bulgaria_Northeast,19.86,21.44,13.88,13.29,20 .28,2.65,2.04,2.72,1.99,0.86,0.3,0.2,0.49
Turk_Bulgaria_Central,20.7,18.66,15.39,15.38,18.54 ,2.72,2.34,1.65,3.26,0.89,0.2,0.17,0.11


For Dodecadk12b:


Turkmen_Iran,21.19,9.46,0.54,1.15,5.45,12.76,4.94, 0.22,6.77,11.03,26.38,0.12


Please delete the old Turkmen_Iran


@Lucas, I've renamed the Russians, it's better when they start with the word Russian. Erzya_Mordovian instead of Erzya is more understandable. At least people can google Mordovia and see it on the map.


Russian_Kargopol,24.92,48.36,7.52,5.54,1.50,0.04,2 .49,0.23,6.67,1.70,0.23,0.53,0.26
Russian_Kostroma,26.19,48.54,6.21,5.35,3.19,0.39,1 .05,0.69,6.37,1.16,0.52,0.19,0.16
Russian_Pinega,24.72,51.94,5.05,2.82,0.39,0.58,1.5 8,0.24,9.96,1.96,0.27,0.31,0.23
Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83,1.69,1 .38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Russian_Southwest,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.26,0.55, 1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Erzya_Mordovian,21.08,50.52,6.40,7.60,2.62,0.32,1. 78,0.49,7.11,1.50,0.00,0.25,0.33

[Kaspias]

These are the overlooked posts

Also:


Crimean_Tatar_Coast,11.12,2.19,1.19,0.75,18.48,19. 73,0.46,0.15,9.05,1.99,34.87,0.01



The Balkan Turks Dunai edited are already removed and replaced with new averages.

[Leto]

Turk_Anatolia,7.8,6.7,11.49,28.23,26.85,4.32,3.32, 3.21,6.46,0.63,0.45,0.3,0.23
Turk_Turkey_average,6.02,5.27,11.79,32.45,28.56,4. 17,3.28,2.55,4.58,0.43,0.44,0.26,0.14
Turkish_mixed,7.12,4.32,12.01,30.83,28.97,5.46,4.0 5,2.41,3.63,0.28,0.56,0.34,0.01

Two of these should go. Which ones?

[Lucas]

These are the overlooked posts

done

[Leto]

done
I've made a solid Russian average for K13! It's based on 35 kits with more or less known genealogy, cherrypicked on the basis of their origin, not because they score a high or low amount of X,Y,Z. I also took into account the size of the population in each region - e.g. I used more people from Central Russia and the Volga region than from Northern or Southern Russia. Siberia and the Far East weren't used as they are too mixed and would probably be somewhere between this one and Kargopol/Kostroma (ranging between full Ukrainians and Uralics).


Russian_average,26.03,47.50,8.65,5.49,2.99,0.68,1. 32,0.45,4.75,1.23,0.46,0.15,0.31


Original spreadsheet
Distance: 1.3123% / 1.31234155
Target: Russian_average | ADC: 1x RC
55.9 Kargopol_Russian
22.2 Southwest_Russian
21.9 Russian_Smolensk

Looks just fine to me :thumb001:

Please delete "Russian", it's just an average of Smolensk, SW Russian and Kargopol made by Dunai.

[Jana]

Nice Leto! :thumbsup:

[Lucas]

I've made a solid Russian average for K13! It's based on 35 kits with more or less known genealogy, cherrypicked on the basis of their origin, not because they score a high or low amount of X,Y,Z. I also took into account the size of the population in each region - e.g. I used more people from Central Russia and the Volga region than from Northern or Southern Russia. Siberia and the Far East weren't used as they are too mixed and would probably be somewhere between this one and Kargopol/Kostroma (ranging between full Ukrainians and Uralics).


Russian_average,26.03,47.50,8.65,5.49,2.99,0.68,1. 32,0.45,4.75,1.23,0.46,0.15,0.31


Original spreadsheet
Distance: 1.3123% / 1.31234155
Target: Russian_average | ADC: 1x RC
55.9 Kargopol_Russian
22.2 Southwest_Russian
21.9 Russian_Smolensk

Looks just fine to me :thumb001:

Please delete "Russian", it's just an average of Smolensk, SW Russian and Kargopol made by Dunai.

You deserved it:)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Hero_of_the_Russian_Federation_obverse.jpg

[Leto]

Some minor aesthetic polishing (renaming, rounding)


Italian_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61,0 .18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Italian_Aosta_Valley,39.39,15.81,22.37,7.56,12.42, 1.2,0.46,0.01,0,0.01,0.12,0.44,0.21
Italian_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61,0 .12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Italian_Basilicata,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.55,28.73,5. 5,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Italian_Calabria,15.99,5.68,21.38,15.48,33.13,6.25 ,0.3,0.46,0,0.06,0.3,0.64,0.33
Italian_Campania,18.53,7.21,21.05,15.4,30.94,4.84, 0.63,0.33,0.1,0.14,0.12,0.52,0.19
Italian_Emilia,29.66,11.98,24.47,8.33,21.32,2.94,0 .27,0.23,0,0.3,0.3,0.16,0.04
Italian_Friuli_VG,32.26,16.88,20.62,7.19,18.53,2.9 9,0.31,0.3,0.05,0.8,0.02,0.04,0.01
Italian_Lazio,25.25,9.35,24.03,11.35,25.14,3.6,0.3 3,0.2,0.12,0.25,0.18,0.14,0.06
Italian_Liguria,30.65,11.88,24.59,7.61,21.06,2.75, 0.38,0.33,0.07,0.28,0.28,0.08,0.04
Italian_Lombardy,32.35,12.62,26.19,5.59,20.25,2.1, 0.32,0.13,0.06,0.02,0.16,0.1,0.11
Italian_Marche,25.48,9.49,23.15,11.52,25.53,3.8,0. 14,0.14,0.12,0.15,0.12,0.18,0.18
Italian_Molise,20.11,8.57,21.61,14.07,29.62,4.58,0 .02,0.47,0,0.38,0.25,0.16,0.16
Italian_Piedmont,32.91,14.19,24.66,6.01,17.91,2.93 ,0.08,0.1,0.18,0.34,0.46,0.02,0.21
Italian_Romagna,26.31,11.19,23.14,10.18,24.32,3.81 ,0.08,0.35,0.07,0.27,0.14,0.14,0
Italian_Trentino,33.67,17.74,23.27,5.53,17.18,1.61 ,0,0.16,0.12,0.22,0.31,0.16,0.03
Italian_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79,0 .22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Italian_Umbria,26.21,9.45,23.31,11.11,24.58,3.76,0 .28,0.17,0,0.16,0.84,0.13,0
Italian_Veneto,32.25,15.08,23.66,7.48,18.38,1.65,0 .25,0.4,0.24,0.27,0.3,0,0.04



Macedonian_North,22.45,22.17,19.47,10.81,21.36,2.2 3,0.35,0.46,0.35,0.22,0.42,0.01,0.07
Macedonian_South,21.94,21.01,20,11.07,21.45,2.57,0 .25,0.43,0.50,0.31,0.38,0.11,0.05
Macedonian_average,22.14,21.76,19.68,10.90,21.19,2 .43,0.22,0.39,0.48,0.28,0.40,0.05,0.07