Is the unspecified Azerbaijani average only Republican? How many samples?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
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Is the unspecified Azerbaijani average only Republican? How many samples?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
Yes, anything except Azerbaijani_Iran is from the Republic. I don't know about the sample size though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Results of an Azeri from the republic. If I am not mistaken (don't remember exact details), mix between Iranian Azeri and northern part of the republic.
Taken from Azerbaijan Turki DNA project.
https://i.imgur.com/vDKOQTp.png
https://i.imgur.com/bLqx05g.png
User Kyp monitors that project and typically he would repost everything here that is of interest. I think that sample has been here before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
Thread is too long, didn't have time to check everything out )
If Kyp confirms that this has been posted, I can delete the post.
I don't remember :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
Then it stays :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
Double
Interesting even the most Southeastern Persian samples (from Yazd and Kerman) have not much difference to the overall average. The same goes for Khorasan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
Again Mazandaran is very odd and interesting. In a way that it has some of the lowest SW Asian, NE and the lowest Atl_Med score. While at the same time the highest Caucasus and Gedrosia averages. Almost like Mazandaran is a Iran_CHL refugium.Quote:
New improved Mazandaran average (should replace old average):
Code:Gedrosian: 33.07
Siberian: 0.48
Northwest_African: 0.25
Southeast_Asian: 0.26
Atlantic_Med: 2.86
North_European: 5.68
South_Asian: 5.27
East_African: 0.32
Southwest_Asian: 10.96
East_Asian: 0.26
Caucasian: 40.38
Sub_Saharan: 0.19
Distance to: Iran_Mazandaran2
5.80141362 Iranian
7.75125151 Lur_Iran
8.37274149 Kurd_KAZ
9.02773504 Talysh_Azerbaijan
9.20149988 Iranian_Fars
9.55405673 Iran_C_East
9.98348136 Yazidi
11.23298268 Kurd_Iran
11.38994293 Kurd_Sorani
11.51538536 Kurd_Kurmanji
11.65305968 Iran_Khorasan
11.79963983 Zaza
13.38943987 Azerbaijani_Iran
15.00246646 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
15.12987773 Azerbaijani
15.32309368 Azerbaijani_Turkey
15.53476102 Udi_Azerbaijan
16.34656233 Parsi_India
17.29798543 Iran_Bandari
18.33634915 Turk_Southeast
18.41191191 Tsakhur_Azerbaijan
18.41790705 Turk_East
18.88137972 Iraqi_Baghdad
19.02821064 Lezgin
Distance: 3.1540% / 3.15402515
Target: Iran_Mazandaran2
40.6 Balochi
23.8 Georgian_Turkey
23.5 Kurd_KAZ
12.1 Georgian_Svan
No surprise there that the top 4 closest pops for Iran_Kurd are basically Kurdish groups (Kurmanj, Soran, Zaza, Yezidi)Quote:
Kurds from Iran:
Code:Gedrosian: 24.60
Siberian: 0.94
Northwest_African: 0.69
Southeast_Asian: 0.50
Atlantic_Med: 8.08
North_European: 7.84
South_Asian: 2.68
East_African: 0.40
Southwest_Asian: 14.56
East_Asian: 0.80
Caucasian: 38.94
Sub_Saharan: 0.04
Distance to: Kurd_Iran
1.65208959 Kurd_Kurmanji
2.40964728 Yazidi
2.75243529 Kurd_Sorani
3.44899986 Zaza
4.45614183 Azerbaijani_Iran
4.45734226 Talysh_Azerbaijan
5.31698223 Iran_Central
5.42853571 Lur_Iran
5.64417399 Kurd_KAZ
5.78879089 Azerbaijani
6.04573403 Iranian
6.63254853 Azerbaijani_Turkey
6.89876076 Iranian_Fars
8.03219771 Turk_Southeast
8.64363928 Udi_Azerbaijan
9.72097732 Iraqi_Baghdad
9.83524784 Iran_C_East
10.22813766 Turk_East
10.63411021 Iran_Khorasan
11.23298268 Iran_Mazandaran
11.33238280 Turk_Central_East
11.73445781 Mandean
11.79381618 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
12.32558315 Turk_South
12.36706918 Azeri_Jew
Distance: 1.3647% / 1.36469372
Target: Kurd_Iran | ADC: 1x RC
72.0 Kurd_Kurmanji
28.0 Kurd_Sorani
Sidenote why are Kurmanj, Soran labeled as Kurd but the same is not done with the Zaza and Yezidi (who speak Kurmanj)? Who made that decision?
We can barely see any difference between Azerbaijani_Iran and Azerbijanu Republic averages but you are saying that Republic Azerbaijanis are much closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
Additionally most of the regions you mentioned here (except Shaki) are populated by other ethnic groups, not Azerbaijanis: Lezgins — in Qusar, Quba and Khachmaz; Avars, Tsakhurs, Ingilois and many others — in Balakan, Zagatala and Gakh; Malakans (Slavic) — in Ismailli. That's the reason why there's very few tests from that region.
I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan but I have to say that turkic people of Azerbaijan Republic mostly came from either from Iranian Azerbaijan or Anatolia (North West region mainly). So I think it's impossible to say that Azerbaijanis in Republic is closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javid
My point was to show the diversity. To show that there is a great deal of heterogeneity (not everything as clear cut as you suggest), and that northern parts are have not been tested enough. They constitute a substantial part of the population, and are predominantly Azerbaijani.
As for the northern regions we have:
Qusar - yes, majority Lezgin, but has some Azerbaijani villages.
Quba - not that many Lezgins in comparison, predominately tats that have been assimilated by now. I would know, I am from Quba.
Khachmaz - predominantly Azeri, with substantial Lezgin population.
Ismailli - Molokans in here are mainly concentrated in Ivanovak, which only has 3000 people. In total, the Russians constitute negligible part of the population of Ismayilli. The rest is Azerbaijani plus Lezgin, which are going full assimilation.
Qax, Balakan etc. - you are clearly underestimating speed with which the assimilation has advanced. This regions have long ago became predominantly Azeri.
Then there is Sheki, Shamaki, Oguz, Siyazan, Shabran. And you are telling me this does not count? :D
There is no clear consensus on ethnogenesis of Azerbaijanis. Hence the substantial difference between different sub-populations. There was a PCA plot somewhere which shows this clearly. Yes, some sub-populations such as southern regions, Karabakh are very close to Iranian Azerbaijanis (notice importance of geographic proximity), while the northern regions (+ Derbend) clearly differ. These northern regions are not as small as you trying to portray them. Assimilation that has been ongoing for centuries had changed the region's ethnic composition.Quote:
I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan but I have to say that turkic people of Azerbaijan Republic mostly came from either from Iranian Azerbaijan or Anatolia (North West region mainly). So I think it's impossible to say that Azerbaijanis in Republic is closer to Caucasian people rather than Iranian Azerbaijanis.
I have attended classes of Azerbaijani history, and no offense, they are chock full of fallacies. So much revisionism of history, attempts to Turkify almost everything that I can't take it seriously, neither should you.Quote:
I don't know if you know about the history of Azerbaijan
I just wrote some of the ethnic groups in these regions, of course there are many others. One thing is clear that Azerbaijani turks are not majority in: Qusar, Quba, Balakan, Qakh, Zagatala and not surprisingly in those regions NE is very high. Turks of those places are very few and they probably are assimilated lezgins, avars and etc and they.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
Other regions that you have mentioned (Shaki, Oghuz, Qabala, Siyazan and Shamakhy) here have Turkic majority and again not surprisingly they have normal NE for Azerbaijanis around 9%, 10% and sometimes 11%. Ismailly can be a bit different because there are significant Molokan and Lezgin population there.
I'm not saying Nothern part are small or something. I'm just saying that most of the Northern region are populated by other ethnic groups. Azerbaijanis of those places are very few and they are mostly assimilated Caucasians.
Any other region (not only Karabakh) has nearly the same averages with Iranian Azerbaijan despite the 200 years of separation.
Azeris are majority in Quba, Khachmaz, Balakan, Qakh and Zaqatala, only exception being Qusar. This is a fact. I have not seen any other statistics contrary to this and I don't know where you take your data. What Azeris have assimilated here is irrelevant (by that logic, Azeris in the south probably have assimilated talysh, kurd etc. Do we disregard them?), the result is that they are Azeris, just like in Derbent, Tabriz, Kars, Kalbajar (had major Kurdish populations), Lachin (again, used to have big Kurdish).Quote:
Originally Posted by Javid
So, you can't disregard the Northern regions, as they are majority Azeri and should be further studied.
Few results from this regions suggest NE>10% usually. They are close to Azerbaijani_Dagestan rather than Azerbaijani_Iran.Quote:
Other regions that you have mentioned (Shaki, Oghuz, Qabala, Siyazan and Shamakhy) here have Turkic majority and again not surprisingly they have normal NE for Azerbaijanis around 9%, 10% and sometimes 11%. Ismailly can be a bit different because there are significant Molokan and Lezgin population there.
That is why I mentioned geographic proximity, it is key here. I'm not denying that say Karabakh Azeris are close to Iranian Azeris. What I'm trying to stress is that there is a very big potion of the country that is not accounted for. Contrary to what you are incorrectly saying, they should be accounted for. For example, not that many results from Quba. One Azerbaijani from Quba that I know scored NE=16% (or 18%). And that whole region is missing. More tests will surely show the differences between different population clusters.Quote:
Any other region (not only Karabakh) has nearly the same averages with Iranian Azerbaijan despite the 200 years of separation.
This is not a bad thing :)
Hey what is the difference between them and those posted by you in Vahaduo general thread? Add those remainign too Central, East, Fars?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
Please finish deleting the obsolete/wrong pops. I will be splitting Tajik_Tajikistan into Lowland and Mountain as it was in the Balanovsky study (Hisor and Kulob = lowland, Ayni = mountain).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
"Tajiks" and "Tajik_Balkh" are not needed and "Turkmen_Iran" has a duplicate.
Hey Lucas not that I care much about Vahaduo but these 2 clowns (Leto and Kyp) are trying to make you an accomplice in their manipulation of Kurdish averages. I 1st became suspicious of them when they removed the Dodecad K12 calculator creators Kurdish averages which are listed at Gedmatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
Neither one of the two are kurds or have any Kurdish DNA blogs so they really don't have any business playing with Kurdish averages.
In fact if you check the KurdishDNA blogspot at http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/search?q=dodecad
you'll see Dodecad K12 screen shots of about 20 Kurdish DNA project members which include 9 Sorani Kurds and 3 Feyli Kurds. For example if you check the Sorani and Feyli averages are close to the Dodecad K12 calculator creator's averages shown below and not what those clowns have had you put into Vahaduo. Additionally those averages (Kurdish DNA project) agree with the Iraqi kurd averages too.
Population Gedrosia Siberian Northwest_African Southeast_Asian Atlantic_Med North_European South_Asian East_African Southwest_Asian East_Asian Caucasus Sub_Saharan Kurd 28.7 1.5 0.9 0.4 5.9 5.7 1.1 0.4 14 1 40.4 0 Kurds 28.2 0.6 0 0.6 6.3 6.7 0.8 0.1 14.3 0.2 42.2 0
Also they have no authority to declare what Iranian Kurdish averages are without proof such as from the authors. In fact, I did take the time to investigate and found about 7 or 8 that are genetically kurds based on formal stats, IBD and other means and those averages don't agree with what they are feeding you.
You can do whatever you want but IMO to maintain some credibility for yourself I would keep whatever averages where included by the Dodecad K12 calculator creator and wait until the authors supply info on who is Kurd and who is not.
I would also require solid evidence from people claiming that an average is off or purporting they have the correct average and not just take their word for it.:)
:icon_ask:
Um, excuse me but I have only added one Kurdish average - Kurd_KAZ and I now think it can be deleted. Kurmanji and Sorani are from a spreadsheet compiled a few years ago by a Turk who posts on Anthrogenica. Neither I nor Kyp had a hand in that. IMO they look okay.
@Zoro, I do think you should leave this forum. Or at the very least leave this particular thread and don't come back.
Don't need to add them otherwise we would have too many Iranian averages. Please delete one of the "Turkmen_Iran" duplicates btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
@Zoro I only created Yazidi average, the "Kurd_Iran" shouldn't be added (as I said), they are just based on the samples from the Iranian study YOU YOURSELF suspected as the Kurdish samples. But since we can't be 100% sure all of them are Kurds we shouldn't add it.
So why did you call the Yezidi average just Yezidi ? and not Yezidi_Kurd as I see people making even averages like Altaien_Turk or calling Iranian Azeri averages, Iran_Azerbaijani?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
And who made the Zaza average? If you guys meant it in the way to distinguish the Kurdish subgroups fine but why than call the Soran and Kurmanj averages Kurd in the naming?
I wasn't sure in what ways Yezidis identify as Kurds. It wasn't deliberate. The country would only be added if you seperate the averages for example Yezidis from Turkey and Yezidis from Iraq. That's why there is Azerbaijani and Azerbaijan_Turkey, Azerbaijani_Iran for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Balanovsky has Yazidis from Armenia. Would be interesting to check them. The only notable minority in that incredibly homogeneous republic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
Azerbaijani would indicate coming from Azerbaijan. They are called Azeri in Iran. A few Yezidis or Zaza that identifiy as something else doesn't change the general view. As you also have some Kurmanji speakers who do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
I also know a number of Azeris from Iran that identify as Persian so that is not really an argument my friend. Fixing it shouldn't be a hard task so?
Wrong, they were called "Tork" in Iran. Only since recently "Azeri" gets used. Also Azerbaijani doesn't indicate from Azerbaijan republic at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
How about changing it yourself? I'm not some type of gatekeeper of the Dodecad spreadsheet.
What they are called is one thing what they call themselves is another. Also as I pointed out Azerbaijani indicates ancestry from Azerbaijan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
How can I change it myself? If the reference pops used in the calculator are named like this.
They always called themselves "Turk" too as it's a linguistic classification primarily. Maybe since there is a country named Turkey this term gets avoided more to remain Iranian integrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
PM @Lucas he manages the spreadsheets. But stick to academically established classifications.
I don't know about that but since at least the Pahlavi Dynasty allot of them do consider themselves Persian. And the exact same argument can be used with the Yezidi and Zaza some few confused souls started doing so since the 80-90s but it didn't seem to hinder you to add them without the Kurd suffix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
Is it the same Lucas who is also active here on Apricity? But then aren't you the guy who added the references? So isn't it easier if you asked him to change the naming? Maybe he won't listen to me.
The Yazidis are a very closed community, they never mix with Muslims or Christians, be they Kurdish or non-Kurdish because if they do, they will be excluded from the community.
Let Kyp answer for himself. That still doesn't change there ethnic origin does it? They are genetically, culturally, linguistically clearly Kurds. Amish people also don't mix or marry outside of their community that still doesn't make them anything else but White Americans. Your argument is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Actually I mostly go with western academic classifcations. "Azerbaijani" is a recognized ethnicity nowadays. Everything else is political (to me personally). So I urge you to stick to estbalished academic facts to remain the universal character of the list. For example origin of Zazas is not 100% established as Kurdish, I would stick to "Zaza" in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
If I would ask my grandmother what ethnicity she is, she would answer "Turk" like 95% of old Azerbaijani people. Now this doesn't mean she doesn't consider herself Iranian too, have you understand? Saying Azerbaijanis are Persian is political in the same way like saying Azerbaijanis are not Iranian because they speak Turkish.
Yes the same Lucas. You can post your demands in this thread (like other members, not only me) or PM him
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ahaduo-ON-LINE
The Amish are not just white, they are pretty much entirely German or Swiss German. But they are their own group now, after several centuries. I oversee the spreadsheet by the way. Without me a lot of references wouldn't be on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
Are the Druze just Arabs? I don't think so.
^agree with Leto on this one.
Don't start with this bullshit in the typical Pan Turanist manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp
Just few posts ago you used self definition as argument for not naming the Yezidi and Zaza branch as Kurdish, when I pointed out that probably the majority of Azeris call themselves simply Persians you did mental gymanistics and now run back to "academic classifications"?
No Azeris in Iran are not considered or called Azerbaijanis by the general science. They are simply called Azeris. Azerbaijani refers to people from the Azerbaijani country. Stop flip flopping with arguments.
I do not agree with Zoro you guys are not clowns. You are the entire Circus. I had my suspicion about you since the very first days but tried to stay friendly. But fact of the matter is you guys are like mental spastics.
And you even once unintentionally revealed yourself to me as not being what you claim to be. You are either from Turkey or have lived for a long time there.
I don't know what the Hell is wrong with Leto but the way how he runs to your rescue and generally seems to have a fettish for Turkish or Turkic things makes me wonder if he and you are in some kind of romantic relation. But I am not going to sit here and watch how two weirdos keep on falsifying data about Kurds and ignore advanced science from the likes of Zoro because apparently they have no clue how it works.
Now stick your friendly character up somewhere else and show your real face.
They are still considered US Americans though. The point is valid. Being endogamous does not make you a different ethnicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Also my point stays calling Azeris from Iran Azerbaijanis is even more inaccurate but it doesn't seem to bother you as much as Kurdish sub branches being labeled as Kurd.
Are you even a Russian or why the hell are you being such a cuck to Turkic theories?
I am not going to waste my time further with your shit either.
I don't know what the hell is wrong with you or why
We're in a Western forum. We stick to classifications established by western academics. If you don't like it create your own Kurdish based calculator/website. You clearly lack knowledge about Azerbaijanis in the first place (wait for Iranian members agreeing with me rather than with you.) What you don't seem to grasp that being "tork" (referring to the language you speak) doesn't neglect the fact of being Iranian. This simple concept you don't understand apparantely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
And no, turkish speaking Azerbaijanis never were referred to as "Azeri" in Iranian academics/history too. These facts don't make me Pan-Turkist. The only Pan-something in this thread is you my friend.
Stop acting like you know shit Kyp. You ignore Western classifications if they are against your ideas and ideology and if they fit your taste then certanly they are the reference?
Just stfu and reveal yourself and your true intention. I am sick of your passive-aggressive bullshit and your false act of kindness.
Turkic cuck? What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, I'm Russian and in Russia the Azerbaijanis are 100% a separate ethnic group. At least for the last 100 years, I know that before Stalin they were called Türk. The Russians in the 19th century referred to them as "Transcaucasian Tatars".Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
What they were called before is of no relevance if the argument is that few certain circles among the Zaza and Yezidi consider themselves as seperate thing. When a majority of modern Azeris (not Azerbaijanis) in Iran would call themselves Persian. You can't have it both ways. Either one or the other. Using different standards is not scientific.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
And if you agree or support that shit than you are not just a traitor to what you claim to be (IE) but also act like a cuck. So make up your mind. I am sick of ignoring this nonsense and I am not going to close my eyes to it.
Listen, I have no strong opinion on the Zaza or Yazidis, so I don't really care what they are called in the spreadsheet. I don't think Azerbaijanis in Iran call themselves Persian. I studied a bit of Persian in the past and as far as I know the main civic nationalist identity over there is irani, not farsi. Southern Azerbaijan is part of the modern IR of Iran, so calling them Azerbaijani wouldn't be wrong IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demhat
What does my being IE have to do with that? How about you leave this thread instead of ruining it? First Zoro, now you.
@Demhat referring to yourself as Persian is just what you would do outside of Iran. Not even Persian-speakers refer to themselves as Persian in their own language. The binding identity is Iranian not Persian. Claiming Azerbaijanis identify as Persian is outright ridiculous. Now it doesn't mean that they don't identify as Iranian.
Have you ever heard the term "Man farsi'am"?
But this is what you as a Pan-Kurd wouldn't understand.