Is there any genetic difference between Norwegians and Swedes?
Printable View
Is there any genetic difference between Norwegians and Swedes?
No major one, but in this analysis, Swedes have a very small but still noticeable "West Asian" component, while Norwegians largely don't and Swedish also have a stronger NE-European component.
Genetic differences vary and it also depend largly on what region someone is from, for example a western Swede could be genetically closer to a eastern Norwegian than he is a person from Northern Sweden, also take into consideration the different Historical outside influences , Forest Finns in eastern Norway and central Sweden, Saami influence in Northern Scandinavia, Scottish immigration to western Norway and the German immigration to the major trading cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by cg93
From the K-11 results, some Swedes seem to have a small amount of West Asian admixture wich is absent in the Norwegian participants.
But I don't think there are enough participants to see the major differences in the Scandinavian regions yet.
He found two Iraqi Jews that were related to each other which caused the informative 12th cluster to appear. He’s going to do another comprehensive analysis which will probably include IDs not included in the one already done. I would expect to more clusters on the new one.
Here are the British and Irish K-11 sheets:http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/923...britishd11.pnghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3...reirishd11.png
^^ It's amazing that the British and Irish are so alike ... almost as if the Anglo-Saxons didn't change the genetic composition at all ... or, were very similar to the Celts anyway.
I don’t think the above graphs could demonstrate that event. You would probably need to have separate populations from Wales, Scotland, Ireland, England Netherlands, Denmark, Northern France and Norway. In fact, because of the past 400 years, you would probably have to restrict the Irish samples to Connaught & Western Munster and the Welsh samples to North Wales. It would be extremely complicated; maybe beyond the scope of what Dienekes and Polako can achieve even if they wished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
You have to remember that this is the year 2011 not 1011. Nearly every European nation has undergone demographic change in the last 1000 years.
To investigate if a population movement truly happened at a certain time, the investigator would have to take into account the documented population movements/changes (variables) that happened after the event which one is investigating.
In the case of the 'Anglo-Saxon' settlement of England, one has to realise that today’s average Englishman, depending on the generation, has documented ancestry from Ireland, Scotland and Wales totaling 30-50%. This demographic change is a result of three events; The act of union, The Industrial revolution and English immigration to the New world.
The modern populations of France, Russia, Hungary etc. surely cannot be fully representative of their forefathers, History tells us so.
After seeing these results, I think we need to close the Norwegian border totally ... I don't want any of that green stuff in my future children.:D:D:D
Not even Brits, Germans and Swedes may enter the kingdom of Norway.
Does someone have the graphs for the Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, and Greeks? I'd like to see those.
K-11 sheets for Spanish, Portuguese, Italians and Greeks:)Quote:
Originally Posted by cg93
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7...spanishd11.pnghttp://img26.imageshack.us/img26/820...tuguesed11.pnghttp://img848.imageshack.us/img848/4...taliansd11.pnghttp://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2...regreekd11.png
Some of the Spanish are nearly half NW European. I noticed the main differences;
Spanish have more NW European and Basque than the Portuguese, who seem to have more NW African than the Spanish.
Greeks have much more NE European and slightly more West Asian than the Italians, who have more SW Asian and NW European than the Greeks, and an element of NW African lacking altogether in the Greeks.
Yet the Irish might have more generally Germanic and Viking influences than some people think they have too probably...Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Probably some "old stock Welsh" are less Germanic influenced than many Irish actually...
Does anyone have the one for the French? Since Iberians often cluster with the French on genetic plots I'm curious if their graph looks similar, particularly to the Spanish one since they have so much NW European.
If you ask me, these results entirely corroborate peer-reviewed studies, which show that the Spanish tend to pull toward Northwest Europe while S. Italians and Greeks tend to pull toward the Middle East, while all of these groups remain in the Southern European cluster.
Also notice that the British and Irish do overlap ;)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/dna1.png
This is based on Americans with 4 grandparents all from the same country - you can see that the Spanish fall somewhere between the British-Americans and the (South) Italian and Greek-Americans. I'd expect the French to cluster right with the Spanish but with more overlap with the British.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6Hzs-1W_Qw...2008-fig3b.png
Here you have more, all have the same pattern, spaniards clustering between French and north-italians and pulling towards Basques :
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8453/mcdonald1.png
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2544/laoplotvu4.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7...08210f3th9.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZd...CgraphEuro.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...05472.s007.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...urasianpca.jpg
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3...scalabeled.jpg
http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...00/MDS1600.png
So I guess there are 2 ways to look at it; Iberians are halfway between French and Northern Italians, or they are halfway between Southern Italians/Greeks and British/Irish if using groups further apart geographically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
All the Germans have that green stuff. :D
The green stuff originates in Georgia and the bordering areas of Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallantides
I hope you know I was joking...:D
Though it's still interesting that none of the Norwegians have any 'West Asian' in the K-11 run.
Well, I'd say it is the or at least one of the Anatolian-Mesopotamian Neolithic signals and spread from there in all directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by celtabria
It just survived in the Caucasian mountains somewhat better, because being there better isolated than in Anatolia from other, later influences.
Agrippa - so which modern group is the best representation of the Neolithic migrants into Europe, genetically? Might it be Armenians and Georgians?
These representatives of the "Anatolian signal" were at least important sources for the Neolithic and Metal Age expansions from the Northern part probably and going through the Caucasus into Eastern Europe, over the Anatolia into South Eastern Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by cg93
But I think it is possible that there were other Neolithic expansions with different signals.
This is just an important one for the East and most likely present in early Indo-Europeans too.
If that component analysis represents a real, distinguishable element, I would say that Sardinian was part of it too obviously and if talking about the secondary centres, NE European as well.
So there was not just one expansion. But for this signal, this group, which I would also connect to the yDNA E-V13 and J2, "West Asian" might be not the signal 1:1, but seems to be at least related - at least it would fit into the necessary profile.
And today, well, it is simple, you see in which groups it is strongest, where it best survived genetically - not necessary racially, because if going after sites like Çatalhöyük, they were mostly Mediterranoid, whereas todays carriers being often "Armenoidicised".
The populations would be Lezgins and Georgians in particular, Armenian and Assyrian too.
My latest results - DOD347
75.07% Northwest European (Average UK - 69.5%, Average Ireland - 74.8%)
8.73% Northeast European (Average UK - 10.1%, Average Ireland - 7.6%)
8.26% Basque (Average UK - 8.4%, Average Ireland - 10.4%)
5.57% Sardinian (Average UK - 9%, Average Ireland - 4.5%)
1.81% West Asian (Average UK - 2.4%, Average Ireland - 2.3%)
0.2% South Asian (Average UK - 0.2%, Average Ireland - 0.3%)
0% South West Asian (Average UK - 0%, Average Ireland - 0.1%)
0% East Asian (Average for both UK and Ireland is 0%)
0% North African (Average for UK - 0.1%, Average for Ireland - 0%)
0% Sub-Saharan (Average for UK - 0.2%, Average for Ireland - 0%)
0% East African (Average for both UK and Ireland is 0%)
I'm below or at average for most of the categories, but my NW Euro is 6% higher, closer to the Irish than the British average).
Some gradient maps by Loxias from ABF.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=459
North-West European:
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/705/nwedodk11.jpg
N-East European:
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/394/needodk11.jpg
Basque:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9239/badodk11.jpg
Sardinian:
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8419/sardodk11.jpg
East Asian:
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7990/eadodk11.jpg
West Asian:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8162/wadodk11.jpg
South-West Asian:
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/1791/swadodk11l.jpg
South Asian:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8302/sadodk11.jpg
North African:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8105/nadodk11.jpg
East African:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2571/eafdodk11.jpg
Sub-Saharan African:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9849/ssadodk11.jpg
What's also interesting is the relationship of the components to each other, at the bottom of the picture:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wk9_ST1CKC...MIXTURE_11.png
Just look at the fact, that North Eastern is closer to Basque than to West Asian, even though they are geographically closer TODAY, while on the other hand, NW European is closer to West Asian than what one might think it would, if looking at the geographical distribution!
West Asian is almost - so practically as - close to North Western as Basque is.
The distance to South Western is MUCH larger in comparison.
Sardinian is closest to North Western!
It looks to me, as if the North Western component could be, actually, more of a mix of other components in this scheme at least, showing so close relationships to the rest.
North Eastern on the other hand is distant from all the other components, but close, really close, only to North Western.
This implies to me that this North Eastern is more of an isolated (Mesolithic? Together with Basque?) component, whereas North Western shows strong connections to all the components common in Europe, almost on the same level.
North Western is the closest match for North Eastern, West Asian, Basque and Sardinian.
So I'd assume the Northern component of the North West is the result of a mixture from all those elements marching North in very ancient times, closest to North Eastern, but also close to the rest of the main European components.
At least if overstretching the data and my imagination ;)
But I found it really interesting how that is possible and expect further break ups, especially with more data...
I agree. Originally, I included only the Armenians, Assyrians, and Iraqi [Babylonian] Jews in the graphic I am attaching, below. After reading your comment, I added the Georgian and Lezgin Dodecad K11 averages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa
How accurate are these results, are they more accurate when you compare to a group with similar ancestry?
K=12 ADMIXTURE results for selected participants
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-po3ry04KyL...MIXTURE_12.png
DOD197
North-west European 58.68%
North-east European 29.93%
Basque 9.01%
West Asian 1.73%
East Asian 0.47%
Sardinian 0.17%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
South-west Asian 0%
North Eurasian 0%
Some of the K=12 sheets
Scandinavians
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/2...dinaviand1.png(I'm nr.12)
British
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/215...britishd12.png
Finns
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9...finnishd12.png
Germans
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4...egermand12.png
Irish
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4...reirishd12.png
Polish
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7697/...epolishd12.png
Russians
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/458...russiand12.png
DOD347
63.05% North West European (UK average 61.7%, Ireland average 63.9%) - decrease from last run of 12.02%
16.84% North East European (UK average 13.9%, Ireland average 13.7%) - increase from last run of 8.11%
12.72% Basque (UK average 14.4%, Ireland average 15.6%) - increase from last run of 4.46%
3.85% Sardinian (UK average 4.6%, Ireland average 1.8%) - decrease from last run of 1.72%
1.28% North African (UK average 0.4%, Ireland average 0.2%) - increase from last run of 1.28%
1.24% West Asian (UK average 2.7%, Ireland average 2.8%) - decrease from last run of 0.57%
0.81% East African (UK average 0.2%, Ireland average 0.1%) - increase from last run of 0.81%
0.2% South West Asian (UK average 1.1%, Ireland average 1%) - increase from last run of 0.2%
0% Sub-Saharan (UK average 0.3%, Ireland average 0%) - remained the same
0% South Asian (UK average 0.6%, Ireland average 0.7%) - decrease from last run of 0.2%
0% East Asian (UK average 0.1%, Ireland average 0%) - remained the same
0% North Eurasian (UK average 0.1%, Ireland average 0.1%) - not included in last run
Results are quite different now in many respects, also compare the components to each other.
NW is now even closer to West Asian than before (0,037) and further removed from North Eastern (0,045), North Eastern is now almost as close to Basque as to NW.
That points to what I said before about the components relations, but in this analysis, which seems to be more detailed, it becomes even more clear that North Western has much closer relations to the Neolithic-Southern components than North Eastern.
If comparing with SW Asian, NE Euro is much further away with 0,067 than NW Euro with 0,048 - almost the same distance as between NW and NE with 0,045.
I don't know how this can be (if comparing with the older analysis), but this would really put NE Euro in the category of the older European population elements or an isolated one, while NW is the component of an expansion (Mesolithic, from specific refugia? Neolithic, even Metal Age influences?) much closer related to the Neolithic-Southern components.
Well, let's look for new surprises in new runs ;)
DOD345
NW European 67.37%
Basque 19.14%
NE European 10.57%
SW Asian 1.48%
West Asian 1.11%
South Asian 0.22%
Sub Saharan 0.11%
All the rest on 0%
I also noticed that many Dodecad Indians, Iranians and Pakistani (mostly Northern and higher caste) have NE, NW and WA in the mix, with NW being particularly interesting.
Actually even Jordanians and Lebanese show the NW now, but Iraqi Jews only one.
Morocco Jews too though.
Some Mozabites too, as well as most North Africans, Syrians and some Saudis.
So NW is now really defined differently obviously...
And South West Asian is now practically everywhere.
My results in comparison with two other Norwegians
DOD197(me)
North-west European 58.68%
North-east European 29.93%
Basque 9.01%
West Asian 1.73%
East Asian 0.47%
Sardinian 0.17%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
South-west Asian 0%
North Eurasian 0%
DOD306(West Norwegian)
North-west European 61.54%
North-east European 22.38%
Basque 11.32%
Sardinian 1.54%
West Asian 0.89%
South-west Asian 0.76%
North African 0.68%
South Asian 0.48%
East Asian 0.4%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
North Eurasian 0%
DOD340
North-west European 55.28%
North-east European 25.88%
Basque 13.79%
West Asian 3.12%
North Eurasian 1.91%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
Sardinian 0%
East Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
South-west Asian 0%
Strange you have East Asian but no North Eurasian.
Yet your East Asian might be part of what Dienekes mentioned, the noise appearing at this solution - I wouldn't bet too much on anything below 1 percent.
Unfortunately I was not included in this run.
DOD456
K=12
(north-Europe) :
NORTHWEST Euro = 31,71 %
NORTHEAST Euro = 7,43 %
(south-europe) :
SARDINIAN = 21,11 %
BASQUE = 17,24 %
-------
(others)
West Asian = 13,96 %
south-west Asian = 6,99 %
south-Asian = 0,06%
east asian = 0,00 %
east African = 0,78 %
west African = 0,58%
His new data is interesting:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...d-project.html
What I really wonder is that there are in fact 2 North Atlantic-Germanic clusters, with the one of the differences being, that in the 2nd one are two more Northern Balkanic individuals, 3 and 5 and in the first most British Isles people:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bvZltqp4_q...600/galore.png
One could say North Atlantic vs. Continental Germanic/Central European Indo-Europeans. Scandinavians are split, I guess more Swedes fall into the 2nd cluster and Norwegians will be closer to the North Atlantid one of the British and Irish.
Would be my guess at least.
The two Balkan individuals are easy to explain, as the Balkan sample can be split into more Northern one and more "regional".
Dienekes says himself:
Quote:
Notice also the asymmetry between γ(A, B) and γ(B, A). For example, the sample from the Balkans consists of an assortment of non-Greek people from the Balkans, so it's not particularly concordant with respect to many North European populations: people from the Balkans differ from each other substantially in their North European-ness. North European populations, however, tend to be concordant with respect to people from the Balkans.
I know PC analysis can be strange on the graphic, but I wondered about this as well, because the Finns being closer to Ashkenazi than the Near Easterners in this depiction:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xH4fnQnYbS.../s1600/1_4.png
Which is very strange.
Otherwise everything else was like expected.
This is why:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dienekes
West Eurasian PCA plot showing some implications
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygt...s1600/waeu.png
West Eurasians with Chinese and Yorubas
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--4v9G0mFJ-...eu_yri_chb.pnghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hHmlCN7rVW...hb_blowup2.png