Vahaduo calcs vol.2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Do I understand correctly that my current averages were pasted to "smaller regions" sheet and that's where they are expected to be updated moving forward?
And the usual old sheet is now meant for bigger regions? Perhaps that can be mentioned in the name of the sheet to make it clear.

If my usual averages are by region, then these will be geographic to avoid any confusion between similar names.

Here are averages for the bigger regions sheet. This is not enough to cover the diversity found in each region, but if you want to limit, then that's one way to do it and still have averages that capture the genetic profiles found in Romanians.

https://i.imgur.com/YFIqAWB.png

https://i.imgur.com/ge49XQ3.png

https://i.imgur.com/kDwzVld.png

Code:

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Romanian_North,25.18,30.90,15.24,8.99,14.12,1.63,0.84,0.55,1.29,0.54,0.44,0.16,0.11
Romanian_Centre,24.25,26.42,17.14,10.01,16.88,1.85,0.60,0.58,1.10,0.58,0.38,0.10,0.10
Romanian_South,22.69,24.72,17.67,10.97,18.57,2.05,0.63,0.64,1.03,0.49,0.34,0.11,0.10

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For Republic of Moldova - North, Centre and South is enough as they are all distinct enough. You can remove the national average since it's close to Centre.

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done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

-removed all Bosniak averages except general and Sandžak
-removed all Hungarian averages except general, Transylvania and northern
-removed all Croatian regions, except general, added northern and southern
-removed Serbian/Montenegrin regions and updated their averages
-Aromanian average was updated
-deleted Greek regions and added all regions Vbn posted

what to do with Greece now?

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they should be grouped into something like Trabzon, Cappadocia, Islands, mainland north and south

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

they should be grouped into something like Trabzon, Cappadocia, Islands, mainland north and south

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Thanks. When I catch time, I will try to do that.

Someone sent me update to his previous ref for K13, you can check if it is ok and add.

Pennsylvania_Dutch,42.71,21.53,17.14,5.96,9.29,1.2 9,0.29,0.01,0.48,0.49,0.43,0.1,0.11

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

they should be grouped into something like Trabzon, Cappadocia, Islands, mainland north and south

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Similarly broader regions should be created for Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland too. I also believe it would be very good if not only simple average of the smaller regions will be created, but a weighed average, based on how many people live in those smaller regions, even if it is more time consuming.

Italy probably should be divied into NW, NE, central, southern and Sardinia. Or something along these lines. Maybe Ajeje will have some ideas.
For Germany rothaer and me will simplify the sheet (into four macro regions and average). Edit: German regions were sorted.

For Austria we will too but it is more complicated as Austria is really diverse. Carinthia and Styria will go togheder, less sure about the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucas

Someone sent me update to his previous ref for K13, you can check if it is ok and add.

Pennsylvania_Dutch,42.71,21.53,17.14,5.96,9.29,1.2 9,0.29,0.01,0.48,0.49,0.43,0.1,0.11

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That's for Ceoda's new world sheet :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucas

Someone sent me update to his previous ref for K13, you can check if it is ok and add.

Pennsylvania_Dutch,42.71,21.53,17.14,5.96,9.29,1.2 9,0.29,0.01,0.48,0.49,0.43,0.1,0.11

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Updated.

Would be cool to see an Amish sample for once, leprechauns are easier to find.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

That looks fine with me.

I had 6 regions before as in the NUTS-2 map below, and now they've been reduced to 3 for the "Bigger regions" sheet.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...and-NUTS-3.png

Population: 2.8 million
https://i.imgur.com/D6ODOCn.png

Population: 2.2 million
https://i.imgur.com/RoeyAS3.png

Population: 2 million
https://i.imgur.com/D3lWDoE.png

Code:

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Bulgarian_Western,22.07,25.29,17.67,11.07,18.90,2.28,0.46,0.52,0.68,0.55,0.34,0.08,0.10
Bulgarian_Central,21.04,24.37,17.93,11.70,19.89,2.41,0.58,0.37,0.80,0.35,0.38,0.12,0.06
Bulgarian_Eastern,20.34,22.65,18.01,12.96,20.61,2.65,0.61,0.36,0.68,0.40,0.46,0.14,0.08

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done.

The following are the Greek_Northern_Thrace-sample's updated %s, using a Nebula WGS extraction and 99.99% coverage on all calculators (previous was from a 23ameV5 file with 32%ish coverage):

K13:

Components %
North_Atlantic 19.79
Baltic 21.61
West_Med 18.19
West_Asian 12.41
East_Med 24.23
Red_Sea 0.10
South_Asian 0.37
East_Asian 0.38
Siberian 0.68
Amerindian 0.00
Oceanian 1.37
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.87

K12b:

Components %
Gedrosia 4.52
Siberian 1.00
Northwest_African 2.47
Southeast_Asian 0.23
Atlantic_Med 25.53
North_European 29.11
South_Asian 1.05
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian 6.56
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 29.52
Sub_Saharan 0.00

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

Why so many questions for the first post? ;)

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I just have no chill these days :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

Italy probably should be divied into NW, NE, central, southern and Sardinia. Or something along these lines. Maybe Ajeje will have some ideas.

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I would lean towards leaving them as they are already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eupator

The following are the Greek_Northern_Thrace-sample's updated %s, using a Nebula WGS extraction and 99.99% coverage on all calculators (previous was from a 23ameV5 file with 32%ish coverage):

K13:

Components %
North_Atlantic 19.79
Baltic 21.61
West_Med 18.19
West_Asian 12.41
East_Med 24.23
Red_Sea 0.10
South_Asian 0.37
East_Asian 0.38
Siberian 0.68
Amerindian 0.00
Oceanian 1.37
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.87

K12b:

Components %
Gedrosia 4.52
Siberian 1.00
Northwest_African 2.47
Southeast_Asian 0.23
Atlantic_Med 25.53
North_European 29.11
South_Asian 1.05
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian 6.56
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 29.52
Sub_Saharan 0.00

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Those are your results?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

I would lean towards leaving them as they are already.

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That is what the other sheet (updated smaller regions) is for. Main sheet (updated bigger regions) will have simplified regional averages for larger countries.

I removed Irish and Scottish regions because they seem almost the same. But maybe Creoda or Graham can make more simplified IE/SC regions?

Scottish Highlands & Scottish Lowlands?
Ireland west and east (or no need for that even)?

Open for suggestions.

Hopefully somebody divides Poland, it's huge but lacks diversity. Maybe they just need 2 averages or so

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eupator

The following are the Greek_Northern_Thrace-sample's updated %s, using a Nebula WGS extraction and 99.99% coverage on all calculators (previous was from a 23ameV5 file with 32%ish coverage):

K13:

Components %
North_Atlantic 19.79
Baltic 21.61
West_Med 18.19
West_Asian 12.41
East_Med 24.23
Red_Sea 0.10
South_Asian 0.37
East_Asian 0.38
Siberian 0.68
Amerindian 0.00
Oceanian 1.37
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.87

K12b:

Components %
Gedrosia 4.52
Siberian 1.00
Northwest_African 2.47
Southeast_Asian 0.23
Atlantic_Med 25.53
North_European 29.11
South_Asian 1.05
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian 6.56
East_Asian 0.00
Caucasus 29.52
Sub_Saharan 0.00

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Common Southern Bulgarian result

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

in your sheet, remove the regional Serbian and Montenegrin averages, and update these:

Code:

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Serb,24.83,29.18,17.10,8.89,15.96,1.66,0.53,0.30,0.61,0.49,0.33,0.06,0.08

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What was wrong with this Serb average?

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05

It was very good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

Those are your results?

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My father.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eupator

My father.

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All of his ancestry is from Thrace? I'll add him to the average.

Btw, do you know of any k13 results from Serres and East Macedonia?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

I removed Irish and Scottish regions because they seem almost the same.

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Fair enough. In that case you can get rid of the English national average, as it's almost the same as the Midlands average.

Edit: removed it myself.

You can also remove Flemish, as Belgian and South Dutch covers it, and Belgian average is mostly made of Flemish anyway.

edit: removed it myself.

Here's a general North French average, made from the averages of Normandy, Hauts de France, and French Northeast, which are all pretty similar. Ethnically Germanic Alsace and Celtic Brittany can be left as they are IMO.

Code:

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French_North,44.41,20.70,17.08,5.26,8.07,1.31,0.91,0.45,0.59,0.41,0.21,0.20,0.32

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

All of his ancestry is from Thrace? I'll add him to the average.

Btw, do you know of any k13 results from Serres and East Macedonia?

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Yes. He's the original Greek_Northern_Thrace made by user Kaspias years back.

Also, yes, but there's no "native" people with Balkan profiles in East Macedonia, if that is what you are looking for. Maybe 1 or 2 villages with less than 20 old people nowadays (if they are still alive), the region was emptied entirely with the departure of the Ottomans (more than 95% of the pre-treaty population left.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eupator

Yes. He's the original Greek_Northern_Thrace made by user Kaspias years back.

Also, yes, but there's no "native" people with Balkan profiles in East Macedonia, if that is what you are looking for. Maybe 1 or 2 villages with less than 20 old people nowadays (if they are still alive), the region was emptied entirely with the departure of the Ottomans (more than 95% of the pre-treaty population left.)

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Are you talking only about Greeks here (excluding Aromanians and Slavs/Bulgarians/Macedonians?)
there seems to be a peak of Slavic genetics somehwere in this area, for example the father of user paradox from this forum who is Aromanian from Serres has a very "northern" result.

or this result I found on Gedmatch:

*Mikropoli/Karlikovo
Population
North_Atlantic 17.04 Pct
Baltic 27.29 Pct
West_Med 17.19 Pct
West_Asian 13.29 Pct
East_Med 21.18 Pct
Red_Sea 0.44 Pct
South_Asian 0.39 Pct
East_Asian 0.83 Pct
Siberian 1.19 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 0.42 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

I'm trying to collect more samples with confirmed ancestry to make a proper average for Vahaduo. Do you think all these are simply non-Greeks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

That is what the other sheet (updated smaller regions) is for. Main sheet (updated bigger regions) will have simplified regional averages for larger countries.

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Personally, I don't like macro-regions in the Italian case. The Veneto average is as distant from the Lombardy average as "English_Midlands" is from "Irish".

However, one idea might be this:

Italian_Aosta_Valley
Italian_North_Alpine (Friuli, Piedmont, Veneto, Trentino, Swiss)
Italian_North (Emilia, Liguria, Lombardy, Romagna)
Italian_Center (Lazio, Marche, Umbria, Tuscany)
Italian_South (Apulia, Basilicata, Molise, Abruzzo, Campania, Sicily, Calabria)

Code:

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Italian_Aosta_Valley,39.39,15.81,22.37,7.56,12.42,1.2,0.46,0.01,0,0.01,0.12,0.44,0.21
Italian_North_Alpine,33.49,15.86,23.07,5.80,18.13,2.38,0.18,0.19,0.20,0.33,0.25,0.06,0.06
Italian_North,29.74,11.92,24.60,7.93,21.74,2.90,0.26,0.26,0.05,0.22,0.22,0.12,0.05
Italian_Center,26.17,9.81,23.69,10.72,24.63,3.74,0.24,0.16,0.10,0.16,0.38,0.15,0.07
Italian_South,19.03,7.72,21.43,14.55,30.10,5.14,0.32,0.28,0.11,0.20,0.35,0.51,0.27

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Clusters of Italian populations from the smaller regions Vahaduo spreadsheet

https://i.imgur.com/ItjXNNM.png

Clusters of Italian populations as compiled by user Sizzo

https://i.imgur.com/ilDL7GZ.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

What was wrong with this Serb average?

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05

It was very good.

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nothing, I've just collected more samples and recalculated the average.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

Personally, I don't like macro-regions in the Italian case. The Veneto average is as distant from the Lombardy average as "English_Midlands" is from "Irish".

However, one idea might be this:

Italian_Aosta_Valley
Italian_North_Alpine (Friuli, Piedmont, Veneto, Trentino, Swiss)
Italian_North (Emilia, Liguria, Lombardy, Romagna)
Italian_Center (Lazio, Marche, Umbria, Tuscany)
Italian_South (Apulia, Basilicata, Molise, Abruzzo, Campania, Sicily, Calabria)

Code:

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Italian_Aosta_Valley,39.39,15.81,22.37,7.56,12.42,1.2,0.46,0.01,0,0.01,0.12,0.44,0.21
Italian_North_Alpine,33.49,15.86,23.07,5.80,18.13,2.38,0.18,0.19,0.20,0.33,0.25,0.06,0.06
Italian_North,29.74,11.92,24.60,7.93,21.74,2.90,0.26,0.26,0.05,0.22,0.22,0.12,0.05
Italian_Center,26.17,9.81,23.69,10.72,24.63,3.74,0.24,0.16,0.10,0.16,0.38,0.15,0.07
Italian_South,19.03,7.72,21.43,14.55,30.10,5.14,0.32,0.28,0.11,0.20,0.35,0.51,0.27

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This is a logical split of Italians. Did you also make weighed averages, because for instance Piedmont Italians number 4.2 millions, while Swiss Italians are 700.000, so tehnically the Piedmont average should have a much higher weigh within North-Alpine average than Swiss Italians?

Creoda thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf

Personally, I don't like macro-regions in the Italian case. The Veneto average is as distant from the Lombardy average as "English_Midlands" is from "Irish".

However, one idea might be this:

Italian_Aosta_Valley
Italian_North_Alpine (Friuli, Piedmont, Veneto, Trentino, Swiss)
Italian_North (Emilia, Liguria, Lombardy, Romagna)
Italian_Center (Lazio, Marche, Umbria, Tuscany)
Italian_South (Apulia, Basilicata, Molise, Abruzzo, Campania, Sicily, Calabria)

Code:

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Italian_Aosta_Valley,39.39,15.81,22.37,7.56,12.42,1.2,0.46,0.01,0,0.01,0.12,0.44,0.21
Italian_North_Alpine,33.49,15.86,23.07,5.80,18.13,2.38,0.18,0.19,0.20,0.33,0.25,0.06,0.06
Italian_North,29.74,11.92,24.60,7.93,21.74,2.90,0.26,0.26,0.05,0.22,0.22,0.12,0.05
Italian_Center,26.17,9.81,23.69,10.72,24.63,3.74,0.24,0.16,0.10,0.16,0.38,0.15,0.07
Italian_South,19.03,7.72,21.43,14.55,30.10,5.14,0.32,0.28,0.11,0.20,0.35,0.51,0.27

---

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Added!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucas

I had brilliant idea I think:)
No more waiting for my updates! I took those sheets using some code on website directly from pastebin.

So for K13 ancient average and individuals vbknethio now how the POWERS to edit sheets directly in Pastebin and changes are visible on page in the same time:)

New page for K13 Ancient individual (doesn't matter sheet is in two parts I added simply two codes lol...)
https://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Eurogen...d-vahaduo.html

Then Leto you could create your pastebin (but when logged remember, to have ability to edit later) for Dod and I will add that address too to page.

Who wants to be curator of 13 and K15? Maybe Creoda, Basecul or Feiichy? So create your pastebin accounts and add sheets.

I can even divide oracles to few regional parts and few users could be responsible for their regional refs respectively. Just discuss it... So there will be truly community driven oracles:)

I wanted to do such thing before but I theorized to gave someone access to my ftp server which would be too dangerous, no it is safe and easy as fuck.

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I am just doing refs for Moldova, Romania and Bulgaria, with occasional contributions to Ukraine. My updates are spaced out by months, so I don't really need access. I will just post here, and especially at this stage with so many samples having been counted, I doubt there remains anything significant to update for them.

On another note, could you please create another sheet for G25 scaled for Ajeje's simulated coords from K13? This is useful for pops that we do not have from academic papers.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7434162

double

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dunai

This is a logical split of Italians. Did you also make weighed averages, because for instance Piedmont Italians number 4.2 millions, while Swiss Italians are 700.000, so tehnically the Piedmont average should have a much higher weigh within North-Alpine average than Swiss Italians?

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A large percentage of that population is made up of immigrants from southern Italy, other European and non-European countries.

It's fine, these are just proxies anyway. For really detailed breakdown there is smaller regions sheet.

You could update the Gagauz average for both sheets while we are at it. Not much has changed, I've just received one more sample.

Gagauz_Moldova,19.27,23.03,18.01,12.99,21.11,2.46, 0.70,0.41,0.88,0.37,0.49,0.22,0.06

I don't know if you want to do an average for the smaller regions sheet out of only 3 Bulgarians, but if you do here's the average:

Bulgarian_Moldova,22.16,20.14,18.01,13.21,20.12,3. 13,1.58,0.27,0.85,0.27,0.20,0.00,0.08

Another one I'd consider for the smaller regions are Romanians from Ukraine (Northern Bukovina). Average of only 3:

Romanian_Ukraine,25.37,33.29,12.72,10.48,12.73,1.6 3,0.47,0.89,1.07,0.61,0.28,0.26,0.20

I updated the Gagauz and agree Bulgarian_Moldova and Romanian_Ukraine can be added to smaller regions sheet.

For Creoda small regions sheet:

Code:

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Swiss_German_North,41.81,20.86,17.80,8.11,9.32,0.81,0.25,0.00,0.21,0.00,0.68,0.11,0.02

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These samples are all from northern part of Swiss German area so I'd keep regular Swiss_German average for now as well.

Edit: I can add myself, I also have some updates for German/Austrian averages :D

I updated:

Salzburg-Upper Austria
East Prussia Masuria
Farther Pomerania
Schleswig Holstein
Rhineland Palatinate

Does French_South in K13 mean the average of Occitania, Aquitaine and Provence?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stearsolina

I updated the Gagauz and agree Bulgarian_Moldova and Romanian_Ukraine can be added to smaller regions sheet.

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Let's also do these changes in the "Smaller regions" sheet:

• Please remove Romanian_Wallachia since Romanian_Muntenia is enough
• Remove Romanian_North-Moldavia
• Rename Romanian_South-Moldavia to Romanian_Moldavia_South
• Add these two coordinates that represent averages for Suceava-Botosani counties (n=72) and Iasi-Neamt respectively (n=67)

Code:

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Romanian_Moldavia_North,25.79,32.07,14.53,8.69,13.44,1.39,0.78,0.52,1.48,0.53,0.44,0.21,0.13
Romanian_Moldavia_Central,24.03,29.33,15.97,9.67,15.00,1.98,0.89,0.59,1.18,0.59,0.50,0.15,0.12

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

You could update the Gagauz average for both sheets while we are at it. Not much has changed, I've just received one more sample.

Gagauz_Moldova,19.27,23.03,18.01,12.99,21.11,2.46, 0.70,0.41,0.88,0.37,0.49,0.22,0.06

I don't know if you want to do an average for the smaller regions sheet out of only 3 Bulgarians, but if you do here's the average:

Bulgarian_Moldova,22.16,20.14,18.01,13.21,20.12,3. 13,1.58,0.27,0.85,0.27,0.20,0.00,0.08

Another one I'd consider for the smaller regions are Romanians from Ukraine (Northern Bukovina). Average of only 3:

Romanian_Ukraine,25.37,33.29,12.72,10.48,12.73,1.6 3,0.47,0.89,1.07,0.61,0.28,0.26,0.20

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ion Basescul

Let's also do these changes in the "Smaller regions" sheet:

• Please remove Romanian_Wallachia since Romanian_Muntenia is enough
• Remove Romanian_North-Moldavia
• Rename Romanian_South-Moldavia to Romanian_Moldavia_South
• Add these two coordinates that represent averages for Suceava-Botosani counties (n=72) and Iasi-Neamt respectively (n=67)

Code:

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Romanian_Moldavia_North,25.79,32.07,14.53,8.69,13.44,1.39,0.78,0.52,1.48,0.53,0.44,0.21,0.13
Romanian_Moldavia_Central,24.03,29.33,15.97,9.67,15.00,1.98,0.89,0.59,1.18,0.59,0.50,0.15,0.12

---

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Done.

Personally I think we should be aiming for averages of 8+ samples minimum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Creoda

Done.

Personally I think we should be aiming for averages of 8+ samples minimum.

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For quite a few ethnic groups and regions even 5-7 samples is a decent number. You are interested almost entirely in Western Europe, as I have noticed. And luckily for you, that region has the most samples by and large. I mean you can find dozens of samples from Wales, Flanders or Alabama while much bigger countries outside said regions are sometimes severely underrepresented.