Ashkenazi Jews are only 1/4 Israelite

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Far_away

Very nice

Target: FarAway_scaled
Distance: 2.3374% / 0.02337383
48.2 Balkan:Moesian
40.0 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
7.6 Caucasian
4.2 Germanic:Nordland

---

Pretty good estimate of their Levantine for Ashkenazis.

Here's a model for Romaniotes and Sephardis
Attachment 132117

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

I thought that we already explained this in 2022 but you keep repeating false information.

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It is no false information. You simply dislike it as you first didn't believe it and feel embarrassed by the respective facts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

The relevant fragment from the city constitution says this:

https://www.radiokrakow.pl/aktualnos...kowa-z-1257-r/

"These voyts also promised to us [to our Royal Majesty] that they will not turn into their co-burghers [of Cracow] any of our serfs, any of Church's serfs, or anybody's serfs, and also any free Poles who have up to this point lived in a village - thanks to which our farms will not become depopulated, and farms owned by bishops, canons, or other persons will also not become depopulated."

So this is not true that Poles were not allowed to settle in Krakow. Only peasants (villagers) were not allowed to do so, and of course not all Poles were villagers.

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I did not speak of settling, I spoke of becoming citizen. And no, also free Poles that had been in villages (where else, there was no city around?), not just Polish peasants, could not become citizens. And you had hardly any cities with Polish citizens so that formulation kept effectively Poles out. Understandably both the Polish king and the foreseen German burghers had to find another formulation than that Poles simply were not admitted. In the text there is even an explaining excuse inserted. And becasue the Polish king was the king the others had to promise him and not the other way around - although the effect was the same when the Polish king issued a text with agreed on conditions.

The formulation is obviously a pretext. Because at that time cities were not very populous and just a part of the population were citizens. The whole surrounding was densely settled with Poles. So if there would at all have gone 100, 200 or 300 Polish individuals to the newly founded city and had become citizens that would not much have influenced the countryside, of course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Also as you can see the motive for this law was not "anti-Slavic racism", but the concern that farms would become depopulated if peasants were allowed to move to the nearby city.

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Are you really not aware of that the German burghers and the Polish king will have had different motivations? The German burghers will not have cared for the financial fate of the Polish owned villages but for the Germanness of the city of Krakau and the Polish king will not have cared for the latter but for the former. The Polish king had no interest in the Germaness of Krakau but Germans demanded that and if the Polish king would not have agreed, there would simply not have become attracted Germans with their various skills and this was what the Polish king needed. Poles he had enough already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

And as for when did Cracow become Polonised - already in 1312 every citizen who could not pronounce "soczewica, koło, miele, młyn" was killed.

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Are you serious? This was just a Polish persecution of Germans that were about to achieve a notable political take-over. German was the city language for abt 300 years and in 1532 the Polish king Sigismund I. ordered that all city administrational employees were required to know both German and Polish. This was not for forcefully supporting or introducing German, of course, but for forcefully supporting or introducing Polish. You are skilled with finding things out, so I wonder what's your problem in this case. The balanced bilinguality and eventual turn to Polish language was in the 16th century.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Another thing is that the city of Cracow expanded and absorbed some villages into its suburbs, so some Polish villagers were absorbed anyway.

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The citizenship was a high legal status that not every resident had. So under no circumstances anyone became "absorbed" and automatically citizen in the 13th and 14th century, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Can you provide sources for this claim and also can you prove that this law was universally applied in all cities rather than just in some cities?

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I expressed badly. I meant it was at all just applied in the Ostsiedlung territory and not in Cologne f. i. It was not universally applied. It depended on each guild and each city what policy they made at what time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

We discussed the "Wendish paragraph" (anti-Slavic laws) on Polish history forum but I don't remember it being universally applied everywhere:

https://www-historycy-org.translate....en&_x_tr_hl=pl

I have read about the "Wendish paragraph" in several sources, but I don't remember any of these sources claiming what you claim.

And of course the "Wendish paragraph" is just a colloquial term for all kinds of anti-Slavic laws, not a name of some specific law.

---

Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paraksenos

Pretty good estimate of their Levantine for Ashkenazis.

Here's a model for Romaniotes and Sephardis
Attachment 132117

---

This is maybe good model of modern populations for them :confused:

https://i.imgur.com/1dHO4ES.png

Getting way more Samaritan than Ashkenazi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demirkazık

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.

Code:

---

Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0.0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.0600402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288,0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0.0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0.0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.0613239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091,0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.005564,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.066538,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0.007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954,0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

---

---

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.7108% / 0.01710770
51.2 Germanic
43.0 InsularCeltic
3.0 Roman
1.8 Celtic
1.0 Caucasian

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.7039% / 0.01703889
53.0 Germanic:Nordland
41.0 InsularCeltic:Insular:Roscommon
3.6 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
1.4 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
1.0 Germanic:Zealand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rothaer

And no, also free Poles that had been in villages (where else, there was no city around?), not just Polish peasants

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Free Poles from villages are simply free peasants. Not all peasants were serfs, these terms are not synonymous.

Poles who were townsmen in other towns or grods and Poles who were nobles could become citizens in Cracow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rothaer

And you had hardly any cities with Polish citizens

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Urbanization in Poland did not start with the Ostsiedlung. There existed cities, towns and grods (strongholds) with Polish inhabitants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rothaer

It depended on each guild and each city what policy they made at what time.

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In other words you have no source to support this claim. I asked you for source and you provided none.

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

This is maybe good model of modern populations for them :confused:

https://i.imgur.com/1dHO4ES.png

Getting way more Samaritan than Ashkenazi

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Don't North African Jews need an Imperial Roman proxy like Ashkenazis, Sephardics and Romaniotes do?

add this
0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mopi Licinius Crassus

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

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They still retain 20% direct Levantine ancestry, so they are not just converts. They just mixed a lot with Imperial Romans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mopi Licinius Crassus

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

---

I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mopi Licinius Crassus

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

---

To me Jews are white except those heavily armenoid influenced people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

---

The Imperial Roma samples have 2 homogenous clusters. 30% of the samples are homogenous Aegean and are identical to the homogenous Roman era West Anatolians from Mugla. They are genetic profile that existed since Hellenistic times in the Aegean and were already homogenous in the Roman era.

The other cluster clusters with South Italians and is a mix of Aegeans + Italic-Gaul related and possible single digit % of direct Levantine.


0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

These are the 2 clusters without the outliers

Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672

https://i.imgur.com/N71J3aP.png
https://i.imgur.com/A7adotp.png
https://i.imgur.com/XlqKwcT.png
https://i.imgur.com/DdPPNvj.png

https://i.imgur.com/KTlS9eL.png
Source pops for Jews:

Code:

---

0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.1087389,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica,0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664
 
4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455
 
9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.073985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586
 
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694
 

9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

In other words you have no source to support this claim. I asked you for source and you provided none.

---

Rather: In other words I don't at all make up such a claim.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

(...)

---

Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ates_of_Poland

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rothaer

Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ates_of_Poland

---

Please work on your syntax. It's painful, even for non-English ears.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes

I believe it's something like 40% on average.

They get real mad when you bring up how Palestinians are more native to the land than they are. They repeat the false claim from a book that even Israeli historians call garbage that was destroyed by Norman Finkelstein in the early 80s (I forget the name and author) that the land was without people except Bedouins and that Arabs starting arriving after Zionist Jews made the desert bloom because they wanted better wages, which is just an absurd claim.

The reality is what today is called Israel and Palestine was not devoid of population. The belief that the Romans deported all Jews and the land has been sitting there empty is laughable. Palestinians are predominately Jews who had converted to Christianity and Islam, while Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc. are descended from Jews living in communities they had formed throughout the known world for trading purposes over centuries and Jews the Romans expelled from cities, such as Jerusalem, because it's in cities where the brains of a political opposition will be found.

---

Just don't forget the Arabs (including Egyptians and Levantines from other places) that migrated and mixed with the mostly converted Jews living in there, let's not forget that the Arabs aren't just coming straight from Arabia, so them looking more levantine genetically doesn't make them 100% local either, most Palestinians' results I see are very Egyptian.
It's a fact that the Palestinians average is very different from the Samaritan and more similar to the Levantine Muslim mutts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peterski

Rome_Imperial is too heterogenous population to use it as one average. This population includes individuals who are 100% MENA.

---

I used just the samples in the "Central Med" cluster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paraksenos

Don't North African Jews need an Imperial Roman proxy like Ashkenazis, Sephardics and Romaniotes do?

add this
0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

---

Arent North African Jews actually Sephardics who ended there after expulsion from Spain?


Anyway, this Imperial Roman you posted gives me quite good distance 2.0 in combination with Slavic samples. :)

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0372% / 0.02037166
69.2 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
30.8 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dušan

Arent North African Jews actually Sephardics who ended there after expulsion from Spain?


Anyway, this Imperial Roman you posted gives me quite good distance 2.0 in combination with Slavic samples. :)

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0372% / 0.02037166
69.2 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
30.8 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

---

Since you are a Serb you also need these

1.East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

1.Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
1.Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paraksenos

Since you are a Serb you also need these

1.East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

1.Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
1.Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321

---

Efharisto :)


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 1.8618% / 0.01861803
66.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
18.6 East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age
15.0 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paraksenos

The Imperial Roma samples have 2 homogenous clusters. 30% of the samples are homogenous Aegean and are identical to the homogenous Roman era West Anatolians from Mugla. They are genetic profile that existed since Hellenistic times in the Aegean and were already homogenous in the Roman era.

The other cluster clusters with South Italians and is a mix of Aegeans + Italic-Gaul related and possible single digit % of direct Levantine.


0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

These are the 2 clusters without the outliers

Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672

https://i.imgur.com/N71J3aP.png
https://i.imgur.com/A7adotp.png
https://i.imgur.com/XlqKwcT.png
https://i.imgur.com/DdPPNvj.png

https://i.imgur.com/KTlS9eL.png
Source pops for Jews:

Code:

---

0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.1087389,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica,0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664
 
4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455
 
9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.073985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586
 
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694
 

9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334

---

---

An extra model as a test with modern Levantines as a proxy
https://i.imgur.com/Rgbz9hV.png
I used Lebanese Christians, Lebanese Druze and Samaritans

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dušan

Efharisto :)


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 1.8618% / 0.01861803
66.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
18.6 East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age
15.0 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

---

try one without Thracian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paraksenos

try one without Thracian

---

Getting Albos without Thracian. :rolleyes:

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0031% / 0.02003108
64.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
23.4 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)
12.2 Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age

Spoiler!

0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica, 0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0 051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455

9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.0 73985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586

8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0 698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0 108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239 ,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321 ,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694


9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334
South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672
East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321

I put everything I found on this page, because what if there's something left in the pot?


Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.2218% / 0.03221821
89.4 Croatia_Iron_Age
8.2 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759
1.2 Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG
1.2 North_Euro:Slavic:Polish

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.8477% / 0.02847698
83.4 Croatia_Iron_Age
10.6 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759
6.0 North_Euro:Slavic:Polish

Target: brother_scaled
Distance: 2.7610% / 0.02761012
89.0 Croatia_Iron_Age
11.0 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759



Doesn't it say that Western Ashkenazi's get 5% Slavic?


Honestly, I find it hard to believe that our clusters separated thousands of years ago and the haplogroup ended up separately in different European countries. To clarify, Spain is in orange because it counts two users, but in reality it should be in light yellow because we are my father and I. As you can see, Poland is the one with more users coming from this cluster.


https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...paE.V2249.JPEG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rothaer

Rather: In other words I don't at all make up such a claim.

---

You made a claim about having to prove that 4 grandparents were Germans before being admitted to a guild.

Can you show your sources for this claim and did it apply just to one specific city or to a number of cities?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rothaer

Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ates_of_Poland

---

Yes I knew about Jewish coins in Poland.

A more interesting question is how did these coins end up in a museum in Berlin? Probably due to Nazi looting during WW2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder#Poland

fuck jews, I have had it with them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universe

What do you mean by Imperial Romans? People on Italian peninsula? Why and how did Italians become more Northern European since the fall of Roman Empire?

---

DNA samples from Imperial Rome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

Rome_Imperial is too heterogenous population to use it as one average. This population includes individuals who are 100% MENA.

---

Were they locally born?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

---

I wonder what Julius Caesar was like autosomally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

You made a claim about having to prove that 4 grandparents were Germans before being admitted to a guild.

Can you show your sources for this claim and did it apply just to one specific city or to a number of cities?

---

It's the known Wendenparagraph. See the abstract in English here, the full text is also available at that link.

https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/handle/document/48730#

I didn't read it, as its common knowledge to me that this was the case at some (restricted) time at some cities at some guilds (as I wrote). Funnily Beeskow (!) is mentioned in the abstract.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peterski

Yes I knew about Jewish coins in Poland.

A more interesting question is how did these coins end up in a museum in Berlin? Probably due to Nazi looting during WW2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder#Poland

---

"Probably", because you assume the coins having been located in interwar Poland from the the 12th century till 1939?

I guess there have been more interested and whealthy collectors of such coins outside interwar Poland than inside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnson Reed

DNA samples from Imperial Rome.



Were they locally born?



I wonder what Julius Caesar was like autosomally.

---

In 1-200 AD Imperial Rome, there were two main genetic clusters, one identical to DNA samples from Roman-era Southwest Anatolia (Greek) and another that was a mix of 60% Greek and 30% (Early Republican Roman/Etruscan + Gaul) similar to modern Southern Italians. It's likely that the Southern Italian like cluster developed earlier, before 1 AD, allowing time for mixing, while the "pure" Aegean cluster represents more recent Greek immigrants. Julius Caesar, born in Rome in 100 BC into the Julian clan, might have had a genetic profile similar to modern Corsicans if the elite families of that time didn't mix much with Greeks. If there are sources on the breeding patterns of his family and related elites, we could get a clearer idea of his genetic makeup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnson Reed

Only if you use North Italians instead of South Italians. South Italians make more sense, since Imperial Roman Italy was genetically South Italian-like, not North Italian-like, and Jews mixed with Italians in Imperial Rome.

---

Does my minor Jewish ancestry give me license to slick my hair, wear gold chains and say “Marone!” ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CordedWhelp

Does my minor Jewish ancestry give me license to slick my hair, wear gold chains and say “Marone!” ?

---

The real question is, does it mean you should call "them" ditsoon/moolinyan or schvartza?

https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...abriaYfull.png

Father´s results
https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...ziIreland.jpeg


Truly seeing my situation in Yfull and my father's result in Ashkenazi in FTDNA, and taking into account the oral tradition of my family which says that our ancestor arrived in Andalusia during the Napoleonic invasion, it is determined that my lineage is an Ashkenazi lineage. Let them find out all the shit from the third to fourth experts, also about my own haplogroup, which is out there in the networks, forums, facebook e.t.c

The historical events and the relations and connections between the European countries, the Spanish Empire, the expulsion of the Jews in Spain, the Napoleonic invasion of Spain, etc., make it possible, for example, that there could be a Dutchman with a Sephardic haplogroup, pejoratively called Marranos in his time, and a Spaniard with an Ashkenazi haplogroup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnson Reed

Imperial Roman DNA is essentially South Italian, not Central Italian.

---

Well, I checked Roman samples from Illustrative DNA from mine area:

Code:

---

Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6693,0.119514,0.149283,0.011314,-0.015827,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00047,0.013384,0.011658,0.027518,-0.003735,0.016036,-0.019177,0.008257,-0.008415,-0.01127,-0.002086,0.001267,0.011061,-0.004502,-0.003369,-0.002473,-0.002342,0.005061,-0.005628
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701,0.126344,0.153345,0.028284,-0.028101,0.032621,-0.009482,0.005405,0.003,0.010431,0.031709,0.005521,0.001499,-0.006838,-0.001239,-0.011129,-0.014054,-0.011865,-0.004054,0.002137,-0.006503,-0.009733,-0.008779,0.002095,0.002289,-0.00467
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Viminacium:R9669,0.117238,0.144205,0.017725,-0.012274,0.028928,-0.001116,0,0.009,0.001432,0.021868,0.005196,0.008243,-0.012785,-0.005643,-0.011672,0.001724,0.004172,0.005954,0.00905,-0.005753,-0.013851,0.013354,-0.002218,0.00964,0.007784
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481,0.113823,0.153345,0.013576,-0.032623,0.016618,-0.013945,0.00517,-0.004846,-0.000409,0.029158,-0.006171,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.000138,-0.011808,-0.015646,-0.004303,0.008488,0.007919,-0.011005,-0.000624,0.007048,-0.003821,-0.004458,-0.004191

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Their average was close to central even north Italian.

Roman_SRB-MNE,0.11923,0.150044,0.017725,-0.022206,0.025081,-0.006833,0.002526,0.005134,0.005778,0.027563,0.000 203,0.007606,-0.01364,0.000309,-0.010756,-0.009812,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,-0.006941,-0.006894,0.002288,-0.001572,0.003133,-0.001676


Distance to: Roman_SRB-MNE
0.01930112 Italian_Tuscany
0.02025733 Italian_Emilia
0.02070954 Italian_Lombardy
0.02079867 Greek_Thessaly
0.02340132 Italian_Piedmont
0.02347989 Italian_Marche
0.02434137 Italian_Umbria
0.02561755 French_Corsica
0.02621177 Italian_Bergamo
0.02648841 Greek_Messenia


I dont know is this was common all across Roman empire, but this is for areas of modern Serbia and Montenegro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dušan

Well, I checked Roman samples from Illustrative DNA from mine area:

Code:

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Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6693,0.119514,0.149283,0.011314,-0.015827,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00047,0.013384,0.011658,0.027518,-0.003735,0.016036,-0.019177,0.008257,-0.008415,-0.01127,-0.002086,0.001267,0.011061,-0.004502,-0.003369,-0.002473,-0.002342,0.005061,-0.005628
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6701,0.126344,0.153345,0.028284,-0.028101,0.032621,-0.009482,0.005405,0.003,0.010431,0.031709,0.005521,0.001499,-0.006838,-0.001239,-0.011129,-0.014054,-0.011865,-0.004054,0.002137,-0.006503,-0.009733,-0.008779,0.002095,0.002289,-0.00467
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Viminacium:R9669,0.117238,0.144205,0.017725,-0.012274,0.028928,-0.001116,0,0.009,0.001432,0.021868,0.005196,0.008243,-0.012785,-0.005643,-0.011672,0.001724,0.004172,0.005954,0.00905,-0.005753,-0.013851,0.013354,-0.002218,0.00964,0.007784
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481,0.113823,0.153345,0.013576,-0.032623,0.016618,-0.013945,0.00517,-0.004846,-0.000409,0.029158,-0.006171,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.000138,-0.011808,-0.015646,-0.004303,0.008488,0.007919,-0.011005,-0.000624,0.007048,-0.003821,-0.004458,-0.004191

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Their average was close to central even north Italian.

Roman_SRB-MNE,0.11923,0.150044,0.017725,-0.022206,0.025081,-0.006833,0.002526,0.005134,0.005778,0.027563,0.000 203,0.007606,-0.01364,0.000309,-0.010756,-0.009812,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,-0.006941,-0.006894,0.002288,-0.001572,0.003133,-0.001676


Distance to: Roman_SRB-MNE
0.01930112 Italian_Tuscany
0.02025733 Italian_Emilia
0.02070954 Italian_Lombardy
0.02079867 Greek_Thessaly
0.02340132 Italian_Piedmont
0.02347989 Italian_Marche
0.02434137 Italian_Umbria
0.02561755 French_Corsica
0.02621177 Italian_Bergamo
0.02648841 Greek_Messenia


I dont know is this was common all across Roman empire, but this is for areas of modern Serbia and Montenegro.

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Imperial Roman DNA from Italy was South Italian/East Med like, and Ashkenazim picked up their Italian blood in Roman Italy, not in the Balkans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnson Reed

Imperial Roman DNA from Italy was South Italian/East Med like, and Ashkenazim picked up their Italian blood in Roman Italy, not in the Balkans.

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The South-Central Italy was indeed South Italian like to Dodecanese/Cypriot like while North Italy was Corsican like.

Weren't early Italics essentially akin to Iberians without their North African input?

Jews are obviously not just 25% Middle Eastern. Take a look at this member of the Rothschild family:

North_Atlantic 12.17 Pct
Baltic 6.79 Pct
West_Med 18.74 Pct
West_Asian 9.71 Pct
East_Med 42.48 Pct
Red_Sea 6.59 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.58 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African 2.13 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

He's Middle Eastern as a bastard, though I'm not saying he's identical to Biblical Hebrews or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johnson Reed

Weren't early Italics essentially akin to Iberians without their North African input?

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The Latins were Indo-European, the Iberians and the Etruscans were not.How Lady gaga sits on Bidem's lap And modern Norse believe that the elite of Rome were of Norse origin, for it has been said that "sporadic visits from North Africa. beca NA haplogroup has been found in the Etruscans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leto

Jews are obviously not just 25% Middle Eastern. Take a look at this member of the Rothschild family:

North_Atlantic 12.17 Pct
Baltic 6.79 Pct
West_Med 18.74 Pct
West_Asian 9.71 Pct
East_Med 42.48 Pct
Red_Sea 6.59 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.58 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African 2.13 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

He's Middle Eastern as a bastard, though I'm not saying he's identical to Biblical Hebrews or something.

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Southern Italians have a lot of MENA blood too, Jews have MENA from mixing with Southern Italians in addition to their original Israelite MENA. Surprised that this guy is almost 59% MENA, that's very high for an Ashkenazi.